I’m an ex incel myself, but I’ve been seeing a few users here exhibiting the tell tale signs. “I’m not attractive enough”, “I don’t socialize correctly”, “I’ll never find a woman” - all extremely unhealthy attitudes.
Personally I burned through many friendships and ruined a lot of chances with women because I was in the incel community. The community warped my view of women so much that I made it even harder to meet women, I became my own worst enemy. I lost friends because all I could think of was how horrible it was that they had girlfriends.
I have a friend who helped me out of it. She was the one who started calling out my bad behavior for what it was, and I started on the long uphill path out of it. I’m now married and stable for well over a decade, but I still think back to those days, and it depresses me seeing other people causing this themselves and not being aware of it.
So, Lemmy, for those who have clawed out of it, what’s your story?
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I took estrogen.
I was like fuck them they are so pretty 😭 Now I am pretty yayHell yeah! Be pretty!
No but seriously I was kinda incel once. I barely can remember that time but it involved lots of substances, clubs and things that were supposed to make you manly. Other people enjoyed them, me? I only wanted these things to make me more manly. I thought it can be learned or acquired with enough cigarettes, beer and calling people names and doing stupid ‘acts of masculinity’. I mistook antisocial for masculine I think in this pursuit.
When I felt empathy? again at 27 years old it was amazing. Like a blind person who has seen colours first time since losing them at the young age.It’s truly amazing that we are capable of caring and this deep connection as humans and I don’t think there’s anything more worthwhile.
I feel that “I’m not pretty” stuff too!
But wary of taking estrogen and going with transitioning for social reasons and also because I kinda want to remain sexually active and keep a solid dick lol
So, crossdressing and some makeup it is!
I’d kill myself sooner than see myself in the mirror as an old man one day. It’s pretty easy indicator. Old woman - yeah whatever could be nice, old man - no fucking way brr
And social things, yeah well this is admittedly something that is problematic but I am a firm believer that if you are confident enough, you can get away with just about anything.
I am just me, Emmie, hello. Nothing less or more and the rest anyone can make up in their heads as they see fit. Not my business
Cool!
In any case, I admire your bravery and the firm dedication to be yourself. I wish you the best of luck!
Honestly… Two years in prison. Made me grow up and see how shitty I was as a person.
Mind if I ask you more? What was the nature of crime? How do you feel it changed you? It’s very rare nowadays to see stories of people who feel prison actually helped them becoming better people, and I’d love to know more.
Of course, only if you feel like talking about it; if not, this is alright!
Taking martial arts classes (specifically for me, Brazilian jiu jitsu). Coincidentally i met my current girlfriend there, but you shouldn’t expect to meet women there. Rather, it’s a way to stop thinking about women for two hours. I realized that back then my mind was constantly thinking non-stop if i’m attractive to women, what women like, how i can get one, etc. It’s those thought loops that make interaction so painful.
Literally anything that can get your mind off of women. Hot take; I wouldn’t advise going to a gym though, because still then you’re thinking about how to become more attractive by becoming fit. The goal is to work out to take your mind off things. Martial arts is perfect for this: you physically work out, and your mind is focused on your opponent.
Yo, just want to say: good on you and good advice. I think you nail the problem with the constant thoughts thing, and that also explains why so many people will talk about how they met someone after they “stopped looking”.
The bird will never land on your ship if you constantly stand guard to catch it; instead improve your ship and sail into warmer waters, the bird will land while you are not looking.
-cgp grey
I am not a current or ex incel—I came from the front page out of curiosity—but I feel the need to weigh in on this.
I have a black belt in a mixed martial art, I’ve been active in it for many years as a student and as a teacher, and I strongly feel that martial arts can offer a positive improvement to just about every person.
I joined martial arts because I was severely depressed going through a divorce and custody battle; I was going from work to the bar and then home. My life felt meaningless and I very literally woke up one day and realized that if I didn’t change something I was going to kill myself. I joined a local dojo that day.
Martial arts is special. It certainly gives you a place to vent out some frustrations in a safe, productive way… but if you find yourself a good dojo it can be so much more.
Martial arts boosted my confidence massively; it made me feel better about myself and who I am by giving me regular positive interactions with many other people. Belts are earned from hard work, and the experience of being handed that next rank provides a measurable improvement to guide you.
Eventually you start to be the upper belt and get to guide newer people through the same benefits you’ve seen, which feels great. If you go as far as me you may get to stand in front of the class as an expert and feel the healthy respect of a group of people, earned through dedication and the relationships you have formed with them.
Martial arts made me a better person, and better man, a better father, and helped me live a more well rounded and happy life.
Normally I end this little rant there, but if you are an incel and you are looking to get out I will add one more benefit: women go to class too, and if you want positive role model women to help break you out of a cycle of negativity I can think of no better example than an upper-belt woman who you can interact with in a structured environment. Most people in a dojo are pretty chill and happy to help, they also tend to have high confidence in the upper ranks and aren’t looking to prove anything anymore. It’s a pretty fantastic way to form new friendships that will challenge everything the incel community has convinced you is true.
Not a martial artist here, but I would think the fact that everyone is in a basic uniform in many martial arts also makes it less intimidating for someone with body image issues who feels them especially strongly in front of women. No one is dressed attractively or provocatively in the sort of outfits people wear when doing martial arts. They’re not designed to look sexy. They’re a pretty good gender equalizer in terms of appearance.
I’ve never been an incel but I’ve always sympathised because I feel like I easily could have become one. Seeing a therapist and learning the basics of Cognitive Bias Therapy is what I attribute to helping me out of a lot of those ‘thought loops’.
It’s nice hearing stories about people who’ve escaped it.
You should strength your muscles before doing martial arts anyway
You do not need to pre train to join a martial arts gym as a rookie/white belt
Why did my muscle get hurt then?
Your muscles can get hurt working out too, you just gotta learn to preform in your own capabilities, or you were hurt by an asshole.
Probably went too hard too soon, and you didn’t have time to get used to the activity- it takes months for your body to get significantly stronger. I tore my bicep tendon, I believe I just wasn’t ready for the level of exertion. Similarly I would recommend warming up each session and starting with low effort / low exertion movements.
Lucked out and made (and still have) a great friend who’d always call out my bullshit and also talk through what was wrong with my mindset and thoughts. God, I was insufferable
Not an incel but someone on the trans-and-women-hating pick me pipeline: Got into a fight with a Reddit mod about autism. I’m autistic and ended up arguing with a sub’s mod about how not all autistic people are special snowflake tumblerinas. Left such a bad taste in my mouth that I stopped going to the sub, which was my main source of hate content. Let me get exposed to other viewpoints and ultimately I came out as nonbinary after previously saying nonbinary people weren’t real.
Denial is a common way to cope with all sorts of dysphoria when societal pressure is applied and can influence your decisions.
Congrats on coming out and coming to terms with yourself!
I used to be an incel, but probably not in the way you’d think. I mean it in the original use of the term, that is, I was a queer kid in a small town and there was not a single person in town I was attracted to who was also attracted to me.
I moved to a big city, and things got a bit better but I still had issues in meeting new people with meaningful connections. I expected to just stumble upon the perfect partner that loved me exactly as I was, even though I hated myself.
It wasn’t until someone basically slapped me in the face with the question, “Well, would you want to date YOU?” that it started to make sense. I was spending so much time looking for “the perfect partner” that I forgot to work on myself to become the perfect partner FOR that perfect partner. Once I stopped “looking” for them and instead started working on making myself a better person that things started falling into place.
The only person you have to live with your entire life is yourself, so make sure you love yourself first and people will be attracted to that. No one wants to be with someone who hates themselves and everyone around them.
Well stated. I had a blind date with a partner that was perfect on paper and overnight realized I did not present the way I wanted needed to for that opportunity. I immediately started dieting. After I got into the healthy BMI range I immediately noticed that people started treating me differently and I had significantly more opportunities. It’s hard to accept that the problem might be you, but that’s the path out.
I was like that for a long time. I think I solved my problem by mostly thinking about my situation and the reasons for it and managed to separate fact from fiction. Something that also played a role was to - for a while - literally giving up. For a while I thought I would stay alone forever. For a while I was able to relax a little and not be that desparate, stressed guy who thought his time was running out. Who had to always think about opportunities to meet someone. I could just be myself. Desparation isn’t a very attractive trait. I realized that there actually where quite a few women who seemed to show interest in me, but I never was able to see it, because I felt so beneath them. Them showing interest in me was unbelievable. In times where I didn’t try to desparately meet women or get them to be interested in me I was much better at talking and being interested.
I think I was lucky in having a rather rational way of thinking about problems. That’s how i was able to understand myself and find a way out of this whole. What were the things that (I think) got me out of it:
- I was able to think of women as just other humans.
- They are not automatically miles above me and i would have to hope to get their attention out of luck
- They sometimes are as desparate or unsure of themselves as I was. They were actually pretty glad if I was showing interest in them (previously I never dared to talk to them just for the sake of it, because I feared they would be annoyed as they would always be talked to by idiots like me).
- I remembered something someone said to me as a teenager: " You will make 10 times as many friends in the time you try to get people to be interested in you If you instead show interest in other people". I realized that for a long while I had the mindset of “please pick me!” when i thought about women. I was the low being who would have to hope to be chosen. I was thinking about wearing interesting shirts, or doing interesting things so that someone of the “upper class” would find me worthy enough and talk to me. Only late in life I realized that other people - especially women - weren’t some higher level being - some mythical alien creatures. They were a lot like myself, yearning to be recognized by other human beings. And that I wasn’t that low as well and a lot of other people - especially ( again:) women - were quite happy if I showed interest in them. So for anyone reading this: It might be strange to ask other people their name or from where they are, what they do, what they like. what problems they have. But after a while your thinking changes. Then you might actually genuinely be interested in them. And a lot of them greatly appreaciates it. So: try to be for other people what you want them to be to you. And don’t only talk to people who you want to get into bed. Just expand your perspective. talk to people.
It’s mostly just the mindset. If you’re thinking your worthless and other people are unreachable, then your behavior will mirror this thinking.
Another thing: I am quite glad that when I had this phase in my life “incel” culture wasn’t a thing. At least there were no dark corners in the Internet offering me easy explanations for my problems. I came from a strange place, believing that women where heavenly creatures miles above my sorry existence, so maybe not that typical incel-vibe, but I am still not 100% sure that these women-hating incel-idiots would have turned me against 50% of the population.
I was never full-on incel, but I was definitely headed down that path. I was a late-20’s fat guy with severe acne all over my upper body, and I’d obviously never had a girlfriend. I looked ahead in life and just saw it going further and further downhill. I tried dieting, working out, etc, but none of my attempts at making a change ever lasted.
One day I saw a facebook post that one of my old highschool classmates had gotten married. The guy looked a lot like me, and at first I was mad - I had that classic incel thought of “why is he successful and not me?” But after sitting in that dark place for awhile, I realized that the answer to that question is that I can be successful! I realized that I’d never tried to put myself out there because I always viewed myself as not being worthy - I needed to be fitter, more attractive, better at talking to people, etc - but did I really? I wanted to find out, so I made an online dating account, cleaned myself up, got a friend to take some nice pictures of me doing things I enjoyed, and put myself out there.
I made a goal for myself to never start a conversation with “Hey” or something similar - I went through every profile I found and picked something specific to talk about. It took a while, and I missed a lot of opportunities by being awkward, but eventually I got good enough at holding a conversation to secure a few dates, and in only a few months of that, I found the woman who is now my wife!
I’m still fat, but having someone to look good for was at least enough for me to shower more regularly, which cleared up a lot of my acne. I’m still pretty awkward, but so is my wife, and we both find it endearing. Life’s not perfect - there are still issues - but I’m no longer looking ahead at my life and seeing only downhill trajectory; I have a sense of optimism I didn’t have before, and it mostly came from me accepting myself. I’m not sure if other incels are the same as I was - not realizing that the one they actually hate is themselves - but I hope that if they are, they eventually come to the same realization that I did: that they are worthy.
I made a goal for myself to never start a conversation with “Hey” or something similar - I went through every profile I found and picked something specific to talk about.
This is a good strategy. It’s surprising how many people (of all genders) match on dating apps and think “hey” is a strong opener.
Also surprising is how many people think a longer message they send to every match (eg: “what do you think defines art?”) is a good move.
Asking people about their profile stuff is the way to go. People like talking about themselves. People are (hopefully) putting things on their profile their way to talk about.
In my very limited experience, the one characteristic that seems pretty universal to incels is the inability to have casual, no pressure small talk with anyone, especially with those of the opposite gender (or whatever gender you like).
Small talk is a skill like anything else. It must be practiced and honed. The easiest way to do this is just by being interested in what the person is saying. You don’t have to be funny or quippy. Just be curious about their life and you’ll find that most of small talk is just being able to go back and forth about a topic.
It seems like incels, or at least Tate-holes, treat every conversation as a challenge with the reward being sex.
Just be friends with people. Who fucking cares if you end up in a romantic relationship, allow yourself to form close intimate friendships that aren’t physical.
Awesome! I scored 6 conversation points, I can redeem my punch card for sex now!
Oh you didn’t hear about the pricing update… Sex costs 15 now, but you can redeem 6 for a hug if you ask nicely.
What if you don’t want to be friends with people though?
Any sexual relationship will rely on a foundation of some amount of friendship. A human connection, if you will. There’s a reason the terms are “fuckbuddy” and “friends with benefits” and not just “sex toy”
If you want a sex toy just go buy a sex toy from the shop
What about hookups though? I’d say there isn’t much human connection there, and certainly not friendship.
Realistically, in order to hook up you need the social skills that come from forming and maintaining human connections in order to not immediately make your perspective partner run for the hills the moment you open your mouth. Sure one might be able to get lucky in spite of a lack of any social experience, but that’s about as likely as winning it big in lottery
Can’t tell if trolling, quipping, or honestly asking…
I feel like some people who don’t want friends are often people with low self esteem who have decided their hypothetical future friends will abandon them, or not like them, or whatever, and so they convince themselves that they “don’t want that anyway” as a way of protecting themselves from future pain or embarrassment. In those cases, dating aside, the person should work on their self esteem.
If it’s not that, one could try casual hookup apps. These rely on a certain amount of work, and there’s no guarantee, especially if one lives in a less populated area, but it’s possible.
And the third option for someone who doesn’t want anything social and just wants sex, is sex work. This is exactly what it can be for! The only trouble is that in most places it’s illegal, which pushes it underground, making it both difficult to find and potentially dangerous… but this is the niche it’s meant to occupy.
But honestly… at least consider that it may be the first case, and see if you can search your feelings to figure out “why”.
Small talk is a skill like anything else. It must be practiced and honed. The easiest way to do this is just by being interested in what the person is saying. You don’t have to be funny or quippy. Just be curious about their life and you’ll find that most of small talk is just being able to go back and forth about a topic.
Key here is that anyone can do small talk. You have to have ZERO knowledge about the subject matter. You can just ask questions. Anyone interested in a topic will usually be happy to answer them. This works on anything from sports to cooking to blacksmithing topics. The wonderful thing you find out is: PEOPLE ARE INTERESTING!
Admit your ignorance on the subject and have them walk through explanations. Engage in the conversation by connecting it to any tangential knowledge you have on the subject.
“Ocean kayaking? I’ve never done that. That sounds exhilarating. The closest thing I’ve ever done to that was a canoe on a river when I was 12. I’m sure its different but how different is it?”
“How did you get into that hobby?”
“Where in the world have you done it?”
“Any close calls?”
“How important is the right gear/boat?”
“Where would you like to do that in the future?”
See? Zero knowledge about ocean kayaking, but infinite conversation that the other person is engaged with you in. Congratulations you’re small talking!
It is also okay not to be good a “small talk”. I quite frankly hate it and for the most part i tend to overwhelm people in conversations. Now i am happily married and we still sometimes end up just talking all night, because we engage in conversations we both find meaningful.
Weirdly enough and quite annoyingly now that i am married and built some confidence, a lot of women are hitting on me, and seemingly unfazed by me stating the fact that i am married. Had to cut out a few people from my life because of that.
I changed my gender.
Escape incel culture with this one simple trick! ™
“If you can’t beat 'em, join 'em.”
Couldn’t get a girlfriend so I became the girlfriend
Femcel now then?
That’s cheating! (Just joking, good for you, I wish all the happiness to you, seriously!)
Not an Incel, usually I have great interactions with women IRL and it more often than not lead to dates and relationships. What I absolutely suck at is meeting people.
I’m currently desperately trying to figure out how to meet more people kinda in general. I have a solid friend group a mix of married, single, and in-relationship people but all our hobbies usually aren’t conducive to meeting people. I’ve recently joined a 20s & 30s meet up group for random activities to hopefully meet some people and I’ve been trying to casually read or stuff in local places like Barnes and Nobel. It just feels hard to interact with strangers nowadays if there’s no medium to start the conversation.
I’ve looked into volunteering but all the opportunities are during my work hours so that’s out unfortunately. I’m an introvert so usually bars and the like are out of the question for me. Kinda just stuck. My life otherwise is actually in a pretty decent spot overall
I fell down an incel-adjacent rabbithole when I was a teenager and young adult and while I was physically isolated (lived with my parents in the suburbs but my parents hadn’t bothered to teach me to drive, so getting around was a royal pain in the butt. Realistically I could’ve done more but youth truly is wasted on the young) I then for “reasons” socially isolated myself by avoiding online communities where i could have met people. I had really bad acne that brought my self-esteem to zero (in hindsight the acne was about the 5th least attractive thing about me at that time) and was struggling to complete a college degree in the wrong field while also failing to work enough to be able to afford to move out (again, hindsight 20/20 I had things I could have done but didn’t)
Because I didn’t interact with anyone outside of my household, my social skills never grew and probably deteriorated. I was depressed and felt trapped, I believed myself to be “too autistic” to do things that could help, and it was all around a pretty unhappy time in my life.
I happened to meet my now-wife on an online dating site, and we’ve both reflected and determined we were both in similarly bad but different places at that time. She had gained a bunch of weight (I seem to have a wider attractive range for weight than most people so this wasn’t a problem for me) and was moving on from her nth abusive boyfriend. Honestly my lack of social skills at the time made it so there were times where I flat out said something incredibly hurtful without realizing it. She’s since told me that she put up with that because “at least I wasn’t physically abusive” (single dudes, the bar you need to meet is so, so low)
Anyways we both have since grown a lot as people and have both grown into fairly functioning adults. We both have more to grow (we both really need to get our respective executive dysfunctions under control), and sometimes we’ve grown apart, but we’ve kept growing back together.
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You raised a very important point, as I see it.
One thing we should remember is that incels become so not through the evil hearts, but through disappointment in society in general and women in particular.
Blaming incels only makes it worse, in a way.
Calling out? Good, especially in private. Going hostile? No, thanks. While incel mentality may often make a person aggressive, this is absolutely the case when return aggression is more of a reinforcement than anything.
For you personally I wish to find the person who fits and likes you. I would warn against dating services, though, as they are known drivers of frustration - and they are designed to keep you hooked, which means not actually giving you the person you’ll love (and leave the service for good). Communities around common interests seem to me like the best place to find both friends and lovers.
Vulnerability is attractive. But not trauma dumping.
There’s a time and a place. So don’t be afraid of opening up, you just have to do it in an attempt to connect with people. Not to try and abuse their attention for validation.
Secondly, never pay for an app membership. It’s not worth it and you’re getting the wrong idea how it works.
Make a casual profile with some good pictures and send casual messages. Try to be light hearted and show a little bit of personality.
That’s all you need. Anything more is a red flag to most women. Realize they are trying to sift through hundreds of people. They maybe have a few seconds to look through your profile.
Also stop using the word cuck. Don’t be terminally online and read some books. Expand your perspective. Women are attracted to empathetic and intelligent men. Someone who pays attention and listens. They will give you a lot if you give it back.
Took a flight overseas.
Thailand? Japan?
Missouri 🤣
So you’re saying he has cousins there?
I don’t know if this counts since I was never the women hating type, but for a long time I suffered because I couldn’t figure out a way to have a girlfriend.
How I dealt with it? Understanding myself, mechanisms of social pressure, and the wrong motives I had for wanting to have a girlfriend.
It was always about proving something to others, rather than actually finding a life partner. Everyone around me constantly pestered me to find a gf, friends, family … All the media celebrates certain kinds of romantic relationships. I thought I’m worthless if I don’t do it as well.
Changing that mindset transformed me - I don’t have to put myself in situations I’m uncomfortable with, and I don’t have to pursue types of relationships defined by others.
but l’ve been seeing a few users here exhibiting the tell tale signs. “I’m not attractive enough”, “I don’t socialize correctly”,
Oh god you’re talking about me aren’t you
I feel like I always had that “I don’t socialize correctly” vibes, always feeling like I’m out of context and weird and not cool.
But then I realized something.
Cool people are literally the same. They don’t do some special “cool” things, they just better fit the given community with their traits. I can be cool too, I just need a room of nerds!..and apparently YES, that’s all it took. Now I am cool in my circle, respected by my friends and they actually invite me to spend time with them and are happy when I can turn up. And I also have a girlfriend who adores me and is happy to spend every bit of time with me, too!
Also, all the culture, all the behaviors are all interconnected. You can absolutely have someone into national dances or writing books suddenly turn to hard rock and be completely integral with it! Behaviors, art forms, forms of expression constantly reappear in society, and a lot of what we see today we’ve seen centuries or millennia ago.
So whichever way you socialize, you are not doing it wrong. You are not weird or out of place - society always had people like you, society has them now, and your best bet is to find your people. You are not outdated or ahead of time - modern culture is not fundamentally different from anything that has been before or will be after. You are a real integral part of society, in whatever form you exist, and you create and form it.
If this helps: I’ve been married for decades and still feel like I’m not attractive and don’t socialize correctly.
I’ve recently lost a ton of weight (not for good reasons) and everyone I know is telling me how great I look and I still feel like I’m not attractive.
I think that’s just a common human thing, not necessarily an incel thing.
