And they are. I’m just pointing out that goth has become a meaningless aesthetic and people who dress like that nowadays usually don’t care about the entire goth subculture.
People were saying this 20+ years ago because goths could talk online in chat rooms, see other goths on TV, had specific nights in goth-friendly bars, etc. It was always a mixture of both - unique, but not enough.
I’m comparing it to the punk subculture which despite of almost 50 years of attempts to commodify it has stayed true to its original values and actively rejects those who only care about aesthetics and not the punk rock DIY ethic as posers.
Hence pop-punk is a separate genre and is growing more and more detached from the punk subculture that it grew out of, but the original subculture remains active and popular.
That’s why buying a leather jacket and pre-torn pants would get you laughed out of a punk rock gathering where everything is thrifted and modified DIY but buying every part of a goth outfit brand new is acceptable.
Being goth has completely lost any of its countercultural value since its emergence in the 80s. It has been completely absorbed by capitalism and regurgitated as a commodity, cool clothes you can buy at shopping malls.
I’m comparing it to the punk subculture which despite of almost 50 years of attempts to commodify it has stayed true to its original values and actively rejects those who only care about aesthetics and not the punk rock DIY ethic as posers
*cough* Sex Pistols *cough*
This entire comment is frankly still just ridiculous gatekeep-y elitist bullshit. I know plenty of goths who aren’t just “commodified tiktok posers”, but I guess if your purity test is “buying outfits” then yeah nobody is a true anything anymore
Actually after a re-read, you were constructive and made reasonable points throughout. My bad, I dunno why I interpreted that last one so harshly, wasn’t really my business anyway.
Just want to back you up here and say the deeper ethos sometimes DOES matter. People need to stop acting like a piece of generally good advice applies to every situation ever. The “stop gatekeeping” pendulum has swung a bit too far (although the principle is great and, incidentally, punk as fuck!).
When did we decide everything has to be for everyone, and everyone has a right to participate in everything, just by virtue of existing? What would these folks say to someone who walks around in - e.g., Sikh cultural accoutrement - but has zero interest (and even a snobbish disdain) for the underlying religion? “Good for them, we shouldn’t gatekeep”? Fuck outta here.
On the one hand, all culture and art is syncretic, full stop. I’m not saying punk rock is off limits in any way, that’d be absurd. But at this point it’s got what, like 40 years of maintaining a broadly consistent ethos or spirit? That’s remarkable, it’s valuable, and it’s only been possible because of gatekeeping - passionate community members putting forth effort to maintain the community identity. In a time when every damn thing of cultural significance is being hollowed out and commoditized for profit, we should all celebrate punk rock staying punk.
Fuck yeah, it was wired reading that entire thing with no pushback against the idea that gatekeeping is bad. Really feels like a childish position to hold, and i don’t mean that I’m a condescending way, i mean that they’ve never seen anything they care about get worse because it got diluted.
And they are. I’m just pointing out that goth has become a meaningless aesthetic and people who dress like that nowadays usually don’t care about the entire goth subculture.
It has become completely commodified.
People were saying this 20+ years ago because goths could talk online in chat rooms, see other goths on TV, had specific nights in goth-friendly bars, etc. It was always a mixture of both - unique, but not enough.
I’m comparing it to the punk subculture which despite of almost 50 years of attempts to commodify it has stayed true to its original values and actively rejects those who only care about aesthetics and not the punk rock DIY ethic as posers.
Hence pop-punk is a separate genre and is growing more and more detached from the punk subculture that it grew out of, but the original subculture remains active and popular.
That’s why buying a leather jacket and pre-torn pants would get you laughed out of a punk rock gathering where everything is thrifted and modified DIY but buying every part of a goth outfit brand new is acceptable.
Being goth has completely lost any of its countercultural value since its emergence in the 80s. It has been completely absorbed by capitalism and regurgitated as a commodity, cool clothes you can buy at shopping malls.
*cough* Sex Pistols *cough*
This entire comment is frankly still just ridiculous gatekeep-y elitist bullshit. I know plenty of goths who aren’t just “commodified tiktok posers”, but I guess if your purity test is “buying outfits” then yeah nobody is a true anything anymore
Almost every punk I’ve ever met considers the Sex Pistols to be posers and Johnny Rotten is a complete sellout and reactionary asshole.
You can call it gate keepy but this kind of anticapitalist and anticonsumptionist gatekeeping is what kept punk rock from being recuperated.
no true punksman
You can tell yourself whatever you want to feel superior to others, I guess
What a dismissive, reductive response. As if your point of view is the only one with any merit.
Didn’t cry about it when we got told how nobody is a “real goth” anymore and everybody is just a filthy poser, but that is what got you all upset?
How about you fold your opinion so it’s full of sharp edges and shove it up your pooper?
Actually after a re-read, you were constructive and made reasonable points throughout. My bad, I dunno why I interpreted that last one so harshly, wasn’t really my business anyway.
Just want to back you up here and say the deeper ethos sometimes DOES matter. People need to stop acting like a piece of generally good advice applies to every situation ever. The “stop gatekeeping” pendulum has swung a bit too far (although the principle is great and, incidentally, punk as fuck!).
When did we decide everything has to be for everyone, and everyone has a right to participate in everything, just by virtue of existing? What would these folks say to someone who walks around in - e.g., Sikh cultural accoutrement - but has zero interest (and even a snobbish disdain) for the underlying religion? “Good for them, we shouldn’t gatekeep”? Fuck outta here.
On the one hand, all culture and art is syncretic, full stop. I’m not saying punk rock is off limits in any way, that’d be absurd. But at this point it’s got what, like 40 years of maintaining a broadly consistent ethos or spirit? That’s remarkable, it’s valuable, and it’s only been possible because of gatekeeping - passionate community members putting forth effort to maintain the community identity. In a time when every damn thing of cultural significance is being hollowed out and commoditized for profit, we should all celebrate punk rock staying punk.
Fuck yeah, it was wired reading that entire thing with no pushback against the idea that gatekeeping is bad. Really feels like a childish position to hold, and i don’t mean that I’m a condescending way, i mean that they’ve never seen anything they care about get worse because it got diluted.
Fascinating read you two, thanks