But not Palestine’s.
The German state doesn’t recognise Palestine as a state currently, so probably not.
Only a few countries west of the former Iron Curtain recognise Palestine (Iceland and Sweden, and as of this year Norway, Ireland, and Spain)
The new Nazis and the old Nazis teaming up is a sight to behold.
Acknowledging a country’s right to exist is the opposite of Nazi policy…
Maintaining that an Apartheid state has the right to keep being an Apartheid state is very Nazi-like.
This is not agreeing that Israel is allowed to continue committing genocide. This is just saying that country is allowed to exist as a country. Or do you think that once a country commits a horrific act that they should no longer be allowed to exist?
I’m more interested in the inverse: when does colonizing an already-inhabited area turn into a recognized country? Because Israel was created by a stroke of the pen out of Palestinian land. Or is it purely “might makes right”?
Oh. Could you educate us more about this? Why exactly was it created with the stroke of a pen and when? And by whom? By the mighty Jewish people?
A country being shitty doesn’t mean they don’t have a right to exist. Does Russia not have a right to exist? Did Iraq not have a right to exist?
Do you mean you support Russian ownership of Crimea?
No, because Crimea is part of Ukraine.
What makes it different from Israel on occupied Palestine?
Honestly, time. Time eventually changes things and Russia’s occupation of Crimea was only a decade ago and the founding of Israel was like 80 years ago. Israel’s continued expansion and settlement is wrong and comparable to Russia occupying Crimea.
White South Africa did not have the right to exist. Rhodesia did not have a right to exist.
That’s what we are talking about.
Israel has become a Jewish supremacist apartheid state. Its crimes have become so egregious and so entrenched (“facts on the ground”) that it is not unreasonable to argue that it cannot be reformed in its present form. In this case it is reasonable to argue for its replacement by a democratic successor state in which Jews and others will all have the same rights to freedom and safety.
So funny story, South Africa was able to end apartheid without not existing.
Imagine that!
Wake me up when Israel institutes universal suffrage and legal equality for everyone from the river to the sea, elects Marwan Barghouthi as president and changes it flag and anthem to incorporate Palestinian national symbolism. If such a country would like to still call itself Israel, I will be happy to be proven wrong.
Because this is what ending apartheid means, buddy. Not just getting rid of Netanyahu, but deep structural change, and a commitment to justice, truth and reconciliation.
I favor a two state solution myself, as it is my understanding that is the desire of the majority of Palestinians.
If you have 11 people and a Nazi at a dinner party, you have 12 Nazis.
The historical Nazi Germany was actually quite supportive of zionist efforts and interestingly the reverse was also true for some time before the holocaust got into full swing.
The Nazi party supported zionist plans because they wanted more options for expelling Jews. That was antisemetic.
Modern Germany is supporting the state of Israel’s existence because of modern antisemitic rhetoric about how Israel shouldn’t exist. This requirement is in opposition to antisemitism.
The context is completely different.
What’s anti-semitic about saying israel shouldn’t exist?
When any other country commits genocide, nobody says that country shouldn’t exist. They say that they should stop doing those things.
There were a bunch of countries that were consolidated, created, or had lines redrawn after WWII along with Israel. Other than some choosing to split themselves once they gained autonomy, such as Yugoslavia, nobody is saying that those countries shouldn’t exist.
The only country that regularly has people say it shouldn’t exist is Israel. The only reason people say that is because it is a Jewish ethno state. It is surrounded by ethno states that nobody says shouldn’t exist. The primary people pushing the “Israel shouldn’t exist” are antisemitic groups like neo nazis.
Now, that isn’t to say that creating Israel was a good idea or done for good reasons, but enough decades have passed that it is established. There is plenty of criticism to be had about the genocide, apartheid, borders, and what Israel does wrong without leaping to the antisemitic idea that Israel shouldn’t exist.
Found the hasbara bot. Just for the record states have no eight to exist. This concept doesn’t exist.
Let’s assume for a second though that states would have such a right. When Nazi Germany committed genocide, hell yeah people said that state shouldn’t exist and they were right to say so. Apartheid South Africa, that state also shouldn’t have existed in the first place.
To spin this further, the settler colonial states that got established through genocide on the indigenous population, e.g. the USA, Canada and Australia should have never existed in the first place. It’s not so difficult.
Hence, why should I agree to an anyway non existing right for a settler colonial state to exist that can only keep existing through genociding the indigenous population and otherwise keeping it under an apartheid regime.
I think you have confused the structure and implementation of a state as a culture with a collective identity of people located within a rough geographic area.
A state’s right to exist is not the right to act a certain way, but the right to not be wiped off the map. A colonial state colonizing is only wrong because they are conquering other states that had their own right to exist. Otherwise there would be no reason to say that Palestine should exist, and Palestine should absolutely exist.
Israel gains the right to exist when Palestinians grant it the right to exist.
As it stands Palestinians do not recognize israel. There is an opportunity for israel right now to have a two state solution and have Palestinians recognize them. Yet israel is not accepting it. Because in their infinite Nazi wisdom they want to keep expanding the Lebensraum.
So let me get your stance correct: you think that because Israel is currently committing genocide that they don’t have the right to exist as a country?
the thing is, why the fuck do I have to answer questions about Israel, China, Uganda, or Madagascar or any country, other than Germany, when applying for a German citizenship? That’s absurd!
Because Germany has a history that they want to put behind them. The already have way too many citizens who are white power, neo-nazi assholes who still call for death to Jews, so it’s somewhat logical that they decided they don’t want any more of that mindset as citizens who can vote.
Answering this question would have impact on my ability to acquire German citizenship.
Then that’s your own issue. Germany is a sovereign country who can choose who it wants as citizens. They have chosen to not allow in their country the kind of people who actively work against the right of a certain type of person to exist. Maybe you aren’t that kind of person and are just opposed to the creation of Israel in the middle of someone else’s country without their consent (which I agree was very wrong to do, but at some point we as civilized people need to move forward and figure out how to live in peace instead of constant fighting), but the vast majority of people who say Israel doesn’t have a right to exist are the kind of people who deny the holocaust and think Jewish people don’t have the right to exist. Germany doesn’t want any MORE of that kind of person in their country.
Now, the inverse SHOULD also be true where they require people to say that Palestine has the right to exist as a country, but that excludes most of the world right now.
But people are conflating recognizing Israel as a sovereign state with approving and condoning their actions. If all countries were held to that standard, there wouldn’t be any countries around. The shit my own country does would exclude us from being recognized as a country under that standard.
Denying the right of the Jewish state to exist is not denying the right of the Jewish people to exist IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as denying the right of white Afrikaner South Africa to exist is not a call for the genocide of white Afrikaners.
Afrikaners have a right to life and a right to safety. They don’t have the right to set up an Afrikaner ethnostate on top of the rest of the people who inhabit the land.
Germany is right 100% to combat antisemitism. They are wrong, entirely wrong, to use recognition of Israel as a metric to detect it. It is in fact extremely dangerous and ultimately a generator of antisemitism. Attitudes towards Israel should never be used as proxy for attitudes towards Jews. Anti-semitism is irrational and atavistic at its core. Opposition to the existence of Israel as such is a spectrum of nuanced, but rational positions about land, rights, justice and so on. By lumping in rational arguments with atavistic feelings, they are giving the legitimacy of reason to Anti-semitism.
In fact the majority of European antisémites have zero problem with the existence of Israel “out there”. They are more than happy to see the Jews leave Europe for the middle east. American antisémites are fantasizing that Israel will be the site of the Second Coming of Christ who will then turn all the Jews into Christians. This observation alone should tell you everything about why it is stupid and wrong to use attitudes towards Israel as proxy measures for attitudes towards Jews. When the antisémites pass your metric with flying colours whereas Jewish anti-Zionists fail it, your metric is just shit, simple as that.
Germany is making an extremely dangerous choice here, when they really don’t need to. They don’t have to take a maximalist pro-revisionist-zionism position. They are in fact taking sides in an internal debate between Jews and picking and choosing certain Jews as good and others as bad. Under these statutes Jewish people who speak out against Zionism are automatically labelled as … antisémites.
This is wrong wrong wrong in every way and it makes the world worse for Jews first and foremost.
So what is your solution to all of the people living in Israel (not in the occupied West Bank)? Where do they go?
They stay right where they are. They may need to pay reparations to Palestinians they displaced however, and any laws restricting land ownership or buying and selling to Jews should be abolished.
Who is the government? Is it an elected body? Who elects them?
Because either you appoint a government that is made from basically Hamas (that’ll be peaceful!), or you open elections for a new country where Jewish people are 73% of the population… so basically Israel again but now with officially more territory.
Found the nazi
Germany, there’s a time and place for everything. This is like supporting a "sovereign citizen’s " right to freedom during a murderous rampage. It’s giving “blue lives matter” during George Floyd’s murder.
Since many anti-semites use the current actions of Israel for, well for antisemitism, it’s the perfect time for it.
The right to exist has nothing to do with the actions of the current government.
Since what happened during the nazi regime, you surely can understand why Germany asks this question, don’t you?
This is like a serial-killer, becoming a lawyer and fighting against death-penalty of other serial-killers.
States are not people. The government after the war was not the same as during the third reich.
Sure, but the mindset of the people gets passed down from generation to generation.
I don’t know what you actually want to say about with that. Germans are nazis, that’s why they support now the people they wanted to kill?
They are supporting the exact same scheme they did back in then.
Back then, it was normal to humiliate Jews mentally and physically, while people were looking away.
Today, the IDF (Israel) is about to make the same thing happen to Palestinians. Most of that can be seen on all the video evidence captured by civilians and press.
Is the antisemitism in the room with us right now?
Cause it seems an awful lot to me like y’all are just calling anyone protesting what Israel is doing to Palestine antisemitic.
The perfect time for German Nazis to use Jews as a shield for israel to commit Genocide?
Israel can have the Gaza strip if Palestine gets to take control of the rest of Israel. Problem solved.
How about affirming the two-state solution. You know, the one that everyone sensible has been pushing for to resolve this conflict.
That headline is false. You do not have to affirm Israel’s right to exist.
You have to know that it’s illegal to call for the destruction of the state of Israel. That’s not the same.
Germany equating its historic debt to Jewish people with support for a particular state is an absolutely disgusting distortion of the German obligation of remembrance.
Just like this, they throw under the bus any anti-Zionist Jew.
Honestly, when it comes to Israel/Palestine, the German state should just do what their other genocide victim, Namibia, told them to do and Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Stay the fuck out of it. Say the honorable thing that you will abide by the rulings of international courts. Provide humanitarian aid, help refugees and displaced people. Be a ray of light and humanity, not a stickler for rules and definitions. Don’t be so goddamn fucking German for a change.
This is idiotic. Gandhi hated that Pakistan split off and said that he recognized their existence but would never recognize their “right” to exist.
That’s not even an international policy. Does Castile have a right to exist? Does Kashmir? Does Kurdistan? Why doesn’t Germany demand the same for others?
Why?
Do you really really have to ask why? :)
No. Germany can recognize Jewish lives and the worldwide Jewish community without needing to play into the hands of a rightwing apartheid state and getting involved smack in the middle of their political dispute. This isn’t hard; it’s like being able to say Black Lives Matter without having to support and endorse the controversial policies of Louis Farrakhan.
Yes.
There is a VERY specific reason why Germany is doing this, whilst staying out of other issues. If I have to point out that reason then I think that maybe you should pick up a history book.
Also they aren’t saying that Germany is recognizing Jewish lives and Jewish communities, it says the state of Israel, you know, that appareheids state currently working hard to commit genocide.
Anyone bringing but this issue with either Israel or Palestine being good and the other side being evil is just downright lying for whatever reason. Germany pushing this for Israel really REALLY begs the question: okay, cool, Israel has a right to exist. What about Palestine, and Palestinians in general? Should we just off all of them? Eradicate all of them, men, women and children alike, no matter what country?
Because of our history with Israel? I am all against the genocide against palestinians but defending israels right to exist is a good thing
If “their right to exist” weren’t used to mean “their right to take land from Palestinians and create settlements in land they took through violence” it would be a bit simpler to agree with the statement, but the foundation of Israel itself has always been on pretty shakey ground. The only reason Israel has a right to exist is because it’s impractical that they’d leave at this point. They should leave the land they’ve stolen though.
Why add this to te immigration screeming process while they are actively committing war crimes, stealing land and murdering kids?
germany has managed to land on te wrong side of history twice in the same conversation.
Blindly standing with a group becuase germany feels they have given their own atrocious history.
our history with israel is the third reich and israel having friendly relations. We are continuing nazi tradition by supporting israel.
Alright, lets wrap that up, shall we.
After looking at OPs comments and discussing with him it’s clear to me that he posted this article with a clear agenda.
If Israel’s right to exist is a controversial topic, I‘m out.
I have the opinion that it’s not antisemitism to call out an evil government and protest against its actions.
Getting flustered about Germany saying Israel has a right to exist and not understanding historical reasons why that is the case is just naivety I hope.
Bit of a double standard though, right? They don’t have to affirm Palestinian’s right to statehood. If not saying Israel is a legitimate state is anti-semitism, wouldn’t that make the same stance toward Palestine islamaphobia?
Yes. It’s a Double standard. It was born out of history. Namely the genocide on the Jews by the nationalsocialists.
Germany doesn’t have a special history with Palestine, so they don’t get mentioned.
And yes, I think Germany should recognise a Palestinian state.
What does israel have to do with anti-semitsm?
You keep intentionally conflating Judaism and Zionism after been corrected.
Furthermore you don’t appear to know the history of israel. Zionists had been colonizing Palestine years before Hitler came to power.
You got me. I do. I know there is a difference, but in my experience it rarely matters.
But that’s the point. Recognizing israel is absolutely irrelevant to anti-semitism.
If anything israel using Judaism as a shield for their war crimes is the biggest cause of anti-semitism.
So this move by the German government does not combat anti-semitism. It creates anti-semitism by specifically calling israel a “Jewish” state.
I disagree with you.
You’re free to say why
Recognizing israel is absolutely irrelevant to anti-semitism.
Many people in this thread don’t seem to know this, but within German neo-Nazi movements that’s absolutely wrong. Revoking Israel’s right to exist is the number one talking point of the people doing hitler salutes again.
That’s completely false.
The AfD is full of antisemites. Nonetheless, it fully supports Israel.
Following Hamas’ October 7th attacks, Alexander Gauland (speaking as the honorary AfD chairman) said “The attack was not only aimed at the Jewish state, it was also aimed at us. Israel is the West in an environment that rejects and fights the West. When we stand with Israel, we are also defending our way of life”. This idea of ‘defending a way of life’ is common anti-immigrant rhetoric, and one the AfD frequently utilises to criticise immigration policy in Germany.
This is Germany’s “special history” with the Palestinians being created right now. This. This supporting and enabling their genocide.
What happens if they affirmed that both Israel and Palestine’s right to exist?
It’s a multiple choice question. Also the headline is false. The question is:
“What action relating to the state of Israel is prohibited in Germany?"
The correct answer is “publicly calling for the destruction of Israel".
As of today they’re also expanding deportations. If you are caught using banned slogans on social media such as from the river to the sea and you’re a foreigner you will get deported for “praising terrorism”. Some politicians argue that even as much as a like will be enough for the authorities to throw you out of the country.
And if you have double citizenship and you got your German one as of this year, they will be able to cancel your citizenship if you’re ever convicted of questioning Israel’s right to exist.
Nope, not true. Stop spreading misinformation just because you want to get public praise.
You will not automatically get deported, but it will be made easier to deport foreigners who are praising terrorism. There’s a big difference. You always have legal recourse against this.
That’s important because the phrase “from the river to the sea” is not illegal praise of terrorism in Germany, even if you may have heard so from your equally misinformed bubble. While its use shows that the person saying has a big problem with accepting that a complex situation will certainly not be reflected in a catchy sentence, and that it may be time for that person to just excuse them from a discussion they are very likely not a part of, it is not illegal.
Why? Because courts will have to make the decision whether its use in a specific context was illegal, and more often than not it won’t be.
the phrase “from the river to the sea” is not illegal praise of terrorism in Germany, even if you may have heard so from your equally misinformed bubble
Oh yeah, my misinformed bubble, the official government press conferences: https://youtu.be/lBmDdNZmToU?si=rsLM5CyTSjEFxBTI&t=353
Or DW https://www.dw.com/en/german-cabinet-backs-deportations-for-praise-of-terrorism/a-69480819
I’ve seen people (including jews) getting fined for hate speech for an instagram story containing just “from the river to the sea palestine will be free” From now on, that will also come with a deportation.
The highly esteemed german courts will have the freedom to decide what fits into which context. A social media like will land you in court. Saying that hamas committed terrorist acts but also that it is a resistance movement spawned out of the oppression will also land you in a court because any nuanced discussion is too much for the german intellect and instantly means “pRaIsInG tErRoRiSm”.
I can’t wait to see all the neolibs that clapped when the greens and the social democrats passed these laws, when the AfD gets in power here (which will definitely happen sooner or later, following the EU wide far right movements) and when they decide to reinterpret those “contexts” their highly esteemed german courts like to discuss so much. I’m sure this draconian stuff won’t backfire. But hell, who cares, it’s only Ausländer getting the short end of the stick anyway.
So the blog post just states that the phrase isn’t illegal to use but the state still decides to “investigate” its use often by using force, arrests, and by searching peoples’ homes, confiscating their electronic devices and so on. It’s good to hear that the “Verfassungsblog” argues that its use isn’t generally illegal, but also states that the current police proceedings are going to great extent to intimidate people
You call them police proceedings, but it’s the public prosecutor’s office (Staatsanwaltschaft) that is calling the shots. Regardless, the article also states that two of the highest courts called the Verwaltungsgerichte have decided that the phrase isn’t illegal per se.
Of course it is illegal in the context of glorifying Hamas terrorism, as it should be. That also puts a responsibility on organisers of protests to make sure that they distance themselves from people who are ambiguous in their distancing from hamas, that’s a positive thing in my opinion.
Seems to be a good way to filter out antisemitism.
Exist? Okay sure, why not.
Bomb a Population to a pulp? FUCK NO!
And thats why I will NEVER vote for any of these fucks again! My Party won’t make it into the Bundestag? I DON’T CARE! Because the other Party’s won’t represent me anyway, so I can easily vote for my small Party which at least represents me!
