Trump wants to be dictator and is talking about a third term and you dipshits still keep on with your divisive nonsense meant to push people into political apathy. Lol this site’s political discourse has been completely hijacked by bad-faith, blame Dems at all costs bullshit.
To those not acting in bad faith, you should vote Biden because at least you know he will peacefully step down when his term is up. Trump will try more J6 style violence to stay in power. Could you imagine 20 years of Trump, or if he appointed one of his kids president?
Pull your head out of your ass and vote Biden.
The simplest way to “stop Trump” is for Biden to stop supporting Israel’s genocide and yet the Democratic Party sock puppets never ever demand that Biden stops supporting Israel’s genocide and instead it’s everybody else who is to blame for the increasing likelihood that Trump won’t get stopped even while Biden doesn’t shift an inch on his position.
It’s quite the “curious” take that Biden shouldn’t have to stop supporting genocide even to “stop Trump” and instead it’s everybody else who has a moral obligation to vote for a shamelessly committed genocide supporter to “stop Trump”.
The whole thing has a heavy heavy stink of “the boss is always right and you have to support the boss or else” of both Dictatorships and Criminal Organisations.
I think you are very unfair in how you paint the picture. Biden shouldn’t support genocide, obviously. But realistically, you have to choose between 2 genocide supporters. And “stopping trump” is a good reason to vote for 1 genocide supporter over the other. Obviously you don’t like the genocide supporters and you shouldn’t be forced to choose one but you are living in a (practically) 2 party system and both run a genocide supporter.
That you’re fixated on convincing millions to swallow their principles and vote Biden to "Stop Trump"TM shows that you clearly haven’t understand my points or haven’t actually pondered on them rationally:
When a single man refuses to shift his position to “Stop Trump” and demands that to achive that goal millions of people shift their positions instead, that’s what’s very unfair - it’s saying that “my will is more important than the will of millions”.
That’s the kind of shit you expect in Absolutist Dictatorships or Monarchies with rulers who believe their rule is by Divine Mandate (hence they know better than everybody else), not from a President who supposedly represents his voters.
He can’t even claim that his position represents a majority of his votes because polls show most Democract are against the actions of Israel in Gaza - in this he’s actually going against the desires of most of those who elected him in the expectation that a sufficiently large fraction of them don’t care enough on this subject to change their votes or are forced by circumstance (what you and others who think like you are pushing) to vote for him when they don’t want him as President.
That’s not Democracy, it’s Petty Dictatorship and it’s certainly not “very unfair” to point out when elected representatives are acting like they’re dictators.
It’s also possible to look at this situation and see you as the one who is fixated. Just explain simply what you think happens in November when you refuse to participate in the (albeit shitty) democratic process. We’ll wait.
If that version of the future includes some accelerationist fantasy where things get so bad here – for people of color, LGBTQ, lower and middle class, human rights, wage gap, regulatory capture, &c&c – that we all have some great awakening and there is a violent uprising… Then I’m sorry to tell you that you’re a terrorist.
People here aren’t arguing for you to like Biden; most of us don’t either. We’re asking for you to live in reality.
Funny you think people actually have any options. It is fascist vs fascist with both representing private interests over public interests. It’s not democracy at all. It’s a sham like usual.
Sounds like Biden and the Dems should be trying pretty hard to get young people and progressives to show up this year… Maybe calling them “dipshits” isn’t an effective tactic? In fact, I would say this is the kind of thing that turns people off from giving a shit… Are you TRYING to get Trump elected? How about instead of bullying the voters you’re trying to convince to do what you want them to do, you could try putting that pressure on the Dems to start doing what it takes to get people to show up and vote
What I find amusing is that the primary season hasn’t even officially ended yet. The convention is in August. There are numerous states that haven’t even cast a ballot for Biden. And we’re already absolutely inundated with “You have to vote for him or you’re a traitor to your nation!” hyperbole.
You’d think people could at least save their most hysterical outcries until the general election season has officially started. But no. Everyone on Lemmy is expected to bend the knee right now, at this very instant, because otherwise Trump might become President… six months early?
There’s simply no room in the political calendar for any kind of criticism of the sitting President.
Biden hasn’t been great. He dragged his feet on issues he campaigned on (e.g., student debt relief), he sounds eve older than he is, and perhaps most gallingly, he didn’t unequivocally renounce the genocide in Gaza immediately. Inflation sucks and wages aren’t high enough for most to survive, let alone thrive. I can name a dozen progressives off the top of my head I’d rather have as president.
First past the post voting and the two-party system give us little chance at the national level for meaningful fast change.
But have you seen the shit Trump has promised he will do as president? We all learned an important lesson from the first Trump presidency: take him seriously, not literally. I shouldn’t need to list the things Trump has promised to do, but here’s a highlight reel:
- Enthusiastically support Israel’s “invasion” of Gaza
- Waste billions on a useless border wall
- Deploy the military domestically to “fight crime”, “coincidentally” in blue states
- Slash federal education spending and let states handle their own education
- Repeal background checks, reopen the gun show loophole, roll back federal laws against gun trafficking, and make it easier for kids under 21 to get guns
- Undo Title IX trans rights
And he won’t stand in the way of any of the Project2025 insanity the GOP wants to pursue.
So, on the left, you have an old man who has maybe made things a little better for some too slowly while ignoring a genocide. On the right, you have an old man who endorses that same genocide, promises to make the country an actively worse place for many, and who has empirically proven he will encourage and endorse insurrection and treason to stay in power.
The best play for the future is two-pronged:
- For the medium/far future: push for electoral reform like IRV/ranked choice voting at the local/state level (to get people used to it), endorse third-party candidates, run for local office, donate time/money to causes that matter to you.
- For the near term, to allow the first bullet point to take root and thrive: Don’t let Trump get elected, which means, unfortunately, voting for Biden.
Democrats can’t win without the progressive caucus, and even in the most conservative part of a largely leftist social media site and the best thing that people who claim to be left are saying is ‘Biden was a shit president and I fucking hate having to vote for him’
Does anyone here really think Biden can rely on progressives right now? Honestly, maybe everyone here would say they’d do it anyway, but who here actually thinks a majority of leftists would show up for that POS?
If Biden is steadfast on this position on Isreal he loses. There’s no amount of street-corner-preaching about the end of days that will convince leftists to vote for Biden.
I’m a progressive, volunteered for Bernie’s campaigns. I don’t remember electing you to speak for me, maybe you don’t have your finger so squarely on the pulse of every single progressive.
I plan to vote for Biden, am I excited about it, no. Is the Democratic Party going to put up anyone else, no. Would me holding back my vote matter, no.
There is no world where “not voting for the least bad option” equals anything other than the most bad option winning. You can be upset that that’s the word you happen to find yourself in, no one asked me if having to pick between the two jackboots of the capital class was how we should arrange things either.
One thing I haven’t heard is what’s the alternative. You have my full attention, what would you actually concretely hope to have happen. Let’s say you could convince a large number of Democratic Party voters to follow your lead, what would you have them do?
Perhaps watching the Democratic Party leadership gut the chances of Sanders twice to put up boring ass garbage candidates has hardened my heart. Would you have them sit out the primary convention, great Biden still wins because of super delegates. Would you have them protest and hold back their votes in November, great trump wins. Is there some other thing that’s supposed to happen? What’s the plan?
I am very happy for your politics, honestly I am. I wish more people were as involved as that.
Bidens approval is at 38% right now. That is the second lowest approval rating of any incumbent president in their third term in modern history, second only to carter. The lowest third year approval rating where the incumbent won reelection was Obama with 45%. Biden can afford to lose 3% of his popular vote, assuming 2020 turnout and ignoring the electoral vote(spoiler, that’s a worse situation)
If you’d like to ignore reality and argue that Biden hasn’t lost any fraction of his support from this conflict, just because you personally could concede that issue, then feel free to completely ignore me. Keep reassuring everyone those numbers aren’t real and pray that this doesn’t sink him.
I personally think the only path to victory is Biden about facing in Isreal. That’s what I’d do if I was organizing: do everything in my power to push Biden to see reason. I can’t campaign on “yea Biden is materially supporting a genocide, but he’s not irredeemable” to progressives that are camping on campuses for weeks to months over it. There is nothing I could do to convince those people to vote.
Spend your time how you want but I think it’s far more sensible to try and sway Biden than it is to convince an entire cohort to vote for a candidate that’s complicit in genocide.
Ok, but concretely, how do you want to do that? This meme?
I believe you, you think that Biden’s support for Israel will ensure his defeat. What do you think could get him to change his position, I highly doubt he’s browsing lemmy.
I get your frustration and I read some of your other comments and I don’t really disagree with you. The thing is, the people disagreeing with you in this thread agree with the deeper concern. I’m concerned that Biden’s support for Israel will make him lose too. I don’t believe there is anything the voting public can do to change that support. I believe that support has been bought and paid for by the capitalists that want that support for whatever awful reason they have, and that our shambling “plutocracy in democracy clothing” means we won’t be able to change that.
So I look at the line you are pushing and I think, what are the likely outcomes of this effort.
- Biden retracting his support for Israel, no.
- Some people on lemmy getting disenchanted and sitting home, maybe.
- The horse race obsessed media running endless stories about Biden losing the left and the youth vote, which while true, act as a flywheel suppressing more voters, absolutely
And I just can’t figure out the point. Maybe you are more optimistic than me, maybe you still believe that shouting into the social media zone could swell a grassroots rebellion, get Biden to change his stance, and secure his victory. I just have a hard time believing it.
Now if you told me you were going to start a super pac and throw 10s of millions of dollars at the campaign but only if they move on Israel, yea, that could work. Shitposting here isn’t doing anything but demoralizing pragmatic leftists that understand what a shitty fucking dumpster fire of a system we have and are also worried Biden’s unwavering support for Israel is going to fuck us all over. And I struggle to understand who that helps
Its very simple.
If you think it’s bad now, for you, for Palestinians, for whoever, wait until Trump is in power. He’ll commit actual genocide, as in wipe them all out, as he claimed anyways, he’ll install himself as a dictator, as he claimed, and I’m not even starting with that Republican 2025 document that would like to make America into Gilead.
So shit up, swallow your pride, vote Biden. as soon as Biden is elected, protest all you want, block roads, whatever, but for now, vote Biden if you want the world to at least survive the next four years semi recognizably.
An actual genocide is happening right now. If biden doesn’t feel pressured to stop the genocide at the risk of losing votes in an election year, what makes you think he’ll stop it when he’s not at any risk of losing the election?
Several genocides are going on right now, and have been for decades, almost like it’s got nothing to do with who’s in charge in the US or something.
This is about preserving a system that’s at least recoverable in it’s current state. If you don’t vote for Biden your voting for an authoritarian regime and it’s not even an exaggeration. Trump just had a promo video referencing a new Reich in America.
This is the easiest decision American voters have ever had. Go look up what happened when Trump was in power for 4 years and what has happened with Biden for 4 years. We have data on how they both acted in power. That’s incredibly rare. Compare them objectively.
Moral high ground about Israel, while correct, is a hill compared to the mountain of evidence that shows what has happened and will continue to happen under trump if he returns to power. State secrets for sale, supreme Court seats, threats to never relinquish power, codified laws hunting down women who seek abortions, laws against trans and gays, j6 insurrection…you’re actively supporting that by not standing against trump.
Abstaining from voting for Biden this fall is a vote for Trump in a first past the post system. You will be complicit. You will literally be responsible for violence against minorities having played an active part in helping trump return to power. It’s hypocritical to allow that while condemning Biden on Israel.
I get it, I promise. I didn’t vote for Hillary or Trump in 2016 and I see now what that ended up doing to our country. I regret it. I won’t do it again.
It’s impossible to reconcile your disgust for Israeli support from America with the violence you will permit to minorities in America if you don’t vote for Biden. You’re not wrong for hating it, but you must realize what you’re going to do to people with a no vote or a throwaway vote.
Democrats preserve the status quo while republicans push things further to the right. Since our system guarantees that both parties will win at different times, the trajectory is always to the right. I’m voting for democrats down the entire ballot like I do every single election, but it will ultimately not make a meaningful difference. Democrats are using minorities as a shield for their own failings and inaction. If you don’t vote for democrats then they claim it’s your fault for whatever situation minorities find themselves in, but democrats do the bare minimum they can for minorities when they do get voted in. You’re providing a prime example when you use minorities in the US as an excuse to change the subject from genocide in Palestine.
“Identity politics” is a loaded term, but democrats will absolutely play different disadvantaged groups against one another to stop progress. They did it in 2016 when Bernie was talking about the need to help poor people and democrats came out with “but what about poor black people?!” even though democrats don’t do shit for poor black people either and as if poor black people aren’t included in the group of poor people.
I’m literally pointing out your hypocrisy. I’d rather noone one be suffering from a fanatical authoritarian figure be that netenyahu or Trump, but it isn’t a super secret centrist agenda to point out that you will be furthering the suffering of people domestically to make yourself feel good about protesting something that will happen under trump or Biden regardless.
Soapboxing about Democrats doing nothing is demonstrably false, the population has moved farther left quicker than the government, obviously. government is slow. But politics has always trended more progressive than it was in the past. The populace has to drag it kicking and screaming, but it does happen.
I’m probably further left than you, I’m further left than most people. Socialism, Karl Marx, anti capitalism, and French razor blades type stuff.
It doesn’t make me centrist to protect lgbtq folks and women at home with my vote. The fact that you’re salty that I’m pointing that fact out and you feel for some reason that that isn’t a meaningful difference is a you problem. I’m not here making excuses for the status quo to continue, it’s just the facts that we need to do that for now during this election to help the most people possible and your ignoring that.
I can vote for Biden and still criticize him and socially be part of a collective voice that is screaming for change. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Your saying minorities have been a pawn for centrists to use, but your ideology is suggesting that it would be better to ignore them and allow violence against them to continue and ramp up under trump. All because other people are suffering, who, tragically, will continue to suffer regardless of the president. That’s insane and morally dispicable.
At least your still voting for Biden even if you don’t believe anything I’m explaining so thank fuck for that
Again, irrelevant.
Biden isn’t doing much (not enough anyway) to stop this but AGAIN… There is bad and there is MUCH MUCH FORKING WORSE.
What part of trump do you not understand? Do you want Palestinians eradicated from the world or what? I don’t get you people. You want things better for Palestinians, awesome! Me too. Now, how do we get there? “Let’s make sure trump gets in office!!!” WTF?
What part of biden can do something about this do you not understand? I’m already doing my part by voting for biden. Now what is biden going to do about genocide? Remember genocide, the thing that’s supposed to be unthinkable? Yet here you are defending biden fully supporting it.
I fucking hate that the only other option is a fascist tyrant with designs on overthrowing our government.
Jill Stein
If we had ranked choice voting across the board I might actually vote for her or another. But seeing as we only have two practical options, that’s not realistic to vote for her if we expect it to fend off the worse of two voting options. In other words, voting for her doesn’t help avoid Trump. It in fact draws votes away from the Biden option since she’s a green option which wouldn’t realistically draw any votes from the right.
Stop bending over for the duopoly. Do something about it like I am.
And what pray tell is that?
Supporting, donating, and spreading the message to friends and family about the Green party. It is the largest decent party in the US so a good base to build from. What everyone else on this site does is complain about voting for Joe Biden instead of doing anything.
Literally has a guidebook written and published as part of his campaign. And people still vote for him.
I wonder if either party has a level of depravity they’ll put up with before choosing to not vote for their candidate
My feeling is maybe not
Have you looked at Project 2025? It is absolutely a blueprint for total fascism. Destroy the FBI, DOJ, DHS, FCC, and FTC. Then replace tens of thousands of federal employees with party loyalists, and practice executive unilateral theory…essentially the idea that the president is all powerful and can act unilaterally.
If that’s not scary enough (because that is essentially the first few years of Nazi Germany in a nutshell)…let’s also cut the department of education so we can keep everyone stupid. Further bans on abortion and restrictions on contraception. Criminalize porn. Get rid of any federal DEI programs and eliminate discrimination and harassment protections for LGBT.
Then shrink the EPA and destroy NOAA. Roll back any climate change legislation and go full-steam on fossil fuels.
Reduce the number of generals (no doubt to keep loyalists and cronies).
It is literally impossible to read any one page of Project 2025 and see it as anything other than a blueprint for fascism and the destruction of America, essentially handing it over to corporations and party loyalists. And it is 920 pages long. And the book is only one part of Project 2025.
Oh, and most of this was just paraphrased from 3 paragraphs of the Wikipedia article. This is the tip of the iceberg.
This is cartoon level villainy. They are actually spelling out their plans directly in plain view for everyone, and his own supporters are completely ignoring it, because they are spoon-fed their “news” that conveniently doesn’t include this.
Maybe Biden should be less DOGSHIT, then I wouldn’t have to worry about him losing to that other, bigger piece of shit
Destroy the FBI, DOJ, DHS,
i want this, too. democrats railed against dhs as fascist when bush implemented it. fbi and doj enforce unjust laws. fuck all that. get rid of them all.
ITT: you’re a Trump supporter if you call genocide genocide.
There’s a lot of people who plan on voting Biden, myself included, who effectively feel held hostage at this point. “Don’t criticize support for genocide or Trump is going to destroy the country and probably kill a lot of people” is probably one of the most frustrating political discourses I’ve ever experienced. The folks making this argument are right in that Trump winning is bad for everyone, including the Palestinians, and I can empathize with the pragmatism there. That said, that argument rings hollowly for me, because it comes across as so utterly cynical. It reads (to me) as though genocide registers at the same level of urgency as dysfunction at the DMV. They’re sorry for the inconvenience (and probably they really are sorry that it’s happening) but non-combatants getting starved, shot, drone striked, and buried under rubble by our allies is just not something that’s convenient to deal with right now. I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.
I mean its barely about what people here think.
Broadly, Biden supporting this genocide in the way that he has is costing him the election. Acknowledging this doesn’t mean you support Trump. Arguing that if you don’t support Biden in-spite of this position is headspinning, and some posters here (@[email protected] ) are doing the work of trying to separate the left from Democrats in this regard.
The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn’t work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
So what if you’ve been convinced that its OK for Biden do a little genocide? The whole god-damned point is that other people don’t believe the same thing you do, and if you actually want to stop Trump you really only have two options. You can either try to convince voters that a little genocide is acceptable if its coming from Democrats, or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
Its far more sensible to bring your criticisms to the Democrats in showing that you wont vote for them if they don’t shift their positions on Gaza, than it is to engage in a demonstrable failure of an approach to rhetoric to try and shame people into voting for a only slightly less supportive of genocide candidate.
You can move a politician. Every election cycle politicians move positions. I mean fucking hell, look how far the left was able to drag Biden last election cycle! He basically went from a Republican slate of policy positions to something actually on the left. He didn’t do this his own; he did this to get elected because that’s what the voters wanted. Biden can be moved on this, but blaming voters, especially when you know they are on the right side of the issue, is setting 2024 up for disaster.
I’m just amazed at the amount they punch left then don’t understand why it’s always an issue.
Maybe I’ve gotten too old and cynical to be surprised by it.
Its been the theme of the modern Democratic party to work diligently to cut off your nose to spite your face.
I mean look at the recent jungle primary in California. Adam Schiffs campaign spent millions supporting Republicans in that primary to avoid having to compete against Katie Porter.
It often seems like Democrats have nothing but contempt for their voters. Its not clear to me that they care. Its only a very very few number of Democrats who are actually responsive to their voters.
I make the same comment in all these threads, but you don’t have to vote for Biden. I’m planning on voting psl this November and you can too.
Forgive me, but the only psl I know is Pumpkin Spice Latte. Care to explain?
Party for socialism and liberation. They’re running Claudia de la Cruz this go round.
As someone who voted 3rd party in 2016, I very much regret it. It was a wasted vote and helped Trump get in office. The very same thing can happen again. Don’t get me wrong, I hate that Biden is the candidate. I hated it in 2020 as well. The Democratic party is a joke when it comes to putting up candidates. Until we aren’t a two party system, we have to vote for the lesser of two evils with a plausible chance of winning. If not and Trump wins again, we will only move backwards again. It felt like we took two steps backwards and a half step forward.
How we can generate change is by starting at the local level. Ranked choice voting has already begun at many local level elections. We need to campaign for this and for candidates that can make that happen.
There`s just no winning on this matter. Genocide Joe or dictator fascist Trump with even more genocide
Third party over and over again to let the Democrats know we’re serious.
Comrade, just take off your mask and vote Republican.
@[email protected] cough cough
That dude is the absolute worst.
I deleted this comment because I realized I don’t actually wanna take part in an extremely tribal ethno-religious debate. I’ll just say the following things everyone should agree on:
- Any government anywhere that holds one ethnicity or religion above another is fundamentally wrong and oppressive
- Everyone who minds their own business has a right to be safe from violence
- Maximizing good things and minimizing bad things is good, obviously. But this also applies to voting.
I mean, Trump is also defending genocide too though…
Trump being worse deosn’t mean we can’t criticize Biden right now as the sitting president. I have been very supportive of the need to vote for Biden over Trump, but the Democrats need to stop doubling down on denying the atrocities in Gaza already.
Like they aren’t even using nuance or anything at this point. Threateninng the ICC is absolutely ridiculous.
This is unilaterally discrediting our country on the world stage. Trump was bad enough, but we could tell the world over half the county opposed him, and that he lost the popular vote.
This guy won the popular vote, and he’s out there supporting genocide. What a fucking embarrassment to humanity these “leaders” are. Fuck them both.
Obligatory yes, I will be voting for Biden again to fend off Trump. I’ll like it even less than I did last time, though.
First things first.
Criticizing Biden is fine, and everyone should, for the first three years and six months.
Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit. But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on. (Agree dissing ICC is vr bad as well fwiw)
Until then, there is not much difference between “not voting bc genoside” / “grr biden genocide democrats” and https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/
I can only think people either are very aware of it (because it’s exactly right) or not aware of it at all, possibly their first time eligible to vote.
Bibi may lose this election for Biden, and spiral the world downward. This will only strengthen the ties the US has with Israel, however. Trump would absolutely throw a ton of weight behind them, and perhaps even involve the US directly in the genocide.
Bibi doesn’t give a shit about Biden, and Biden is showing an astonishing amount of weakness by not standing up to him. I’m fucking embarrassed for him, and the entire democratic party.
If the only possible outcome is a strengthening of relations with a genocidal colonial project then the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time
the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time
Yes?
Shitty justifications for Biden’s support for genocide I’ve actually seen on lemmy:
In third place: That’s the way we’ve always done it.
In second: We’re worried that the people who chanted “Jews will not replace us” will call us antisemitic.
And now in first place: Trump did it so that makes it ok.
Republicans also support genocide
LESSER OF TWO EVILS The republicans are also pro genocide. Shut up Ivan!
