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I don’t understand how you think not stopping a genocide is the same as aiding or committing a genocide.
If you really think those two things are the same dude, you got to look hard in the mirror.
Whether you blame Biden and the DNC, or the “left” voters for not voting hard enough; if Trump wins, it won’t matter. Get over yourself and try to build allies instead of destroying support.
Go tell Biden to stop supporting Genocide instead of trying to apologize for it.
Like I said months ago, he stops the Genocide or he will lose.
Oh wow, Biden didn’t actively help the genociders one time!!! Wow! That’s certainly means that he has an actively been helping them this entire time. Dude grow up.
If Biden loses, that’s his and the DNC’s loss. It’s up to them to field a candidate that people want to vote for. It’s not up to the voters to go along with whatever the DNC feels like they want. I will be voting Biden because it’s too important. If he loses, I will blame him for running, not the voters. The polling was clear, undeclared Democrat polled much higher than Biden, but for some reason he has main character complex and thought he was the only one that could beat Trump when in reality he might be the only person that can lose to Trump.
If Biden loses, that’s his and the DNC’s loss.
Oh, and also the loss of all of the rest of us who will suffer under another Trump administration.
But fuck the poor, minorities, LGBT folk. We have to show the DNC how principled we are by making sure a fascist is elected!
It’s not up to the voters to go along with whatever the DNC feels like they want.
It’s up to the voters to make an informed fucking choice. That’s the point of citizenship. Voting isn’t a fucking popularity contest, it’s a civic duty.
I’ll be doing my civic duty by not voting. Voting is supposed to be about picking the candidate I want. Well, I don’t want either of these two candidates, and I won’t stand for the DNC rubbing its greedy little fingers together in the background, making deals and concessions with whomever they have to in order to push their candidate of choice.
Biden has done some good things. Honestly more than I expected. This does not now, nor has it ever, and nor will it ever give the DNC carte blanche to manipulate the primaries from the shadows to choose their preferred candidate to represent the party in a wide-open field of two people once every four years.
You want someone to blame for the fact that you’re all sweating bullets about how this election turns out? Look to the DNC when you want to point fingers, not the people who they’re trying to sucker into voting for the damage control option every four years.
Voting is a chess move, not a love letter, although I doubt you’re actually a US citizen.
I certainly hope you aren’t a minority that will lose their citizenship & be exiled under Trump’s Project 2025.
I’m not the Chess Master. I’m a pawn. I’m sacrificed and threatened and told if I don’t do what I need to all the time always then the other side wins.
So I’m not going to move the way I’m told until I get something I want.
I’m a minority setting myself on fire every election. This time I’m inclined to have others burn with me.
But both sides
It’s not that they are ok with Trump. They are just unhappy with both candidates. With that being said I do plan on voting for the Biden because while I don’t agree with him on everything I know that he won’t turn the country into a fascist dictatorship like Trump. The fact that this asshole is still legally allowed to run is insane.
Edit: I change my mind. After seeing Bidens debate performance it is pretty obvious that he is going to lose. Unless if the Democrats replace Biden with a candidate who can actually speak. I will be voting for Jill Stein instead.
Edit 2: Turns out Biden dropped out. I will now vote for whoever the democratic nominee is but after this election I will be voting 3rd party from now on.
Sure I’m going to go to the third party. I recommend you all do the same unless you’re in a swing state. Dr. West and Claudia de La Cruz are actual good candidates.
Curious are you in agreement with West that NATO and the west are to blame for Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine? He opposes funding for Ukraine and wants to end the conflict giving Putin parts of the sovereign nation of Ukraine.
Curious if you are in agreement with Biden’s support for genocide?
Biden supports Ukraine defending itself from the genocide Russia is committing in Ukraine.
Crazy how you couldn’t answer that with a no. Maybe think about that a little my dude ✌️😎
But Biden doesn’t support genocide so there is nothing for me to say no to. West has never mentioned the genocide of Ukrainians. That is ok with you?
Biden supports Israel’s genocide of Palestinians. Which you’re ok with apparently.
So we both support genocidal maniacs. Cool
No
he called the invasion illegal.
Illegal but acceptable it seems. Giving in to Putin will never stop him.
he never said it’s acceptable
He did. He wants Ukraine to accept that Russia has stolen their land and people. If it wasn’t acceptable then he would want them to fight back.
you’re mischaracterizing and making leaps of logic.
West is willing to accept Russia’s demand for parts of Ukraine. That would be a requirement to stop the war. Unless you think West thinks Putin will give back what he has stolen?
Spoiler, they alllll do.
saw someone say maybe another trump win is good because it will mobilize the left a little more
threw up in my mouth a bit through the tears
It’s a round about way of saying they want a civil war.
A lot of those types of leftists fantasize about a glorious revolution, but many revolutions have happened and no utopias exist so…
I think Contrapoints made the same argument in one of her videos.
Agreed. I would add to that – there’s actually an incredibly instructive example to draw by looking at the non-violent-revolutionary movements that did achieve big social change in the past. The US labor movement in the late 1800s, Gandhi’s independence movement, the US civil rights movement with its partial victory, things like that. There are a ton of examples of people who achieved big things to revise the systems that rule their daily lives, starting from a way less advantaged position than the left in the modern day US. It’s not easy, no, but compared to an Indian person under the British Raj it’s an absolute cakewalk.
Strangely enough, the people who are so incredibly upset with the broken system in the US as it pertains to this election (which, yeah, I get that), are somehow totally uninterested in looking at what actions big or small might produce positive change. They’re solely focused on criticizing Biden and only Biden, or on saying that it’s so broken that we might as well let Trump come to power because what’s the difference.
It’s like “The plane is having engine trouble and I don’t know if we’re going to make it. I’m real scared and upset about the situation we’re in. I know! Let’s shoot the pilot in the head.”
Well said.
I believe a fraction of them are actual authoritarian sympathizers, and are just hoping “their brand” will align with a future hypothetical autocrat.
They don’t want actual justice, they just want to reroll the dice and hopefully come out on top.
To the other fraction, I think those folks are exactly the folks who completed those movements you mentioned. They worked hard to push the existing system towards their goal, often starting from a very weak position.
That pushing largely isn’t done, and it is less glamorous and obvious compared to flipping the table, killing the current leaders (and a bunch of other demonized but innocent groups oopsie daisy) and trying again. That’s how you get a Khmer rouge and then a pol pot.
We need another MLK and his contemporaries.
I agree, we really need some leftists who have the backbone of MLK.
Now let me say a word for those of you who are on strike. You’ve been out now for a number of days. But don’t despair. Nothing worthwhile is gained without sacrifice. The thing for you to do is stay together. Say to everybody in this community that you’re going to stick it out to the end until every demand is met. And that you’re going to say, “We ain’t going to let nobody turn us around.” Let it be known everywhere that along with wages and all of the other securities that you are struggling for, you’re also struggling for the right to organize and be recognized…
We can all get more together than we can apart. This is the way to gain power. Power is the ability to achieve purpose. Power is the ability to effect change. We need power…
Now the other thing is that nothing is gained without pressure. Don’t let anybody tell you to go back on your job and paternalistically say, now, “You’re my man, and I’m going to do the right thing for you if you’ll just come back on the job.” Don’t go back on the job until the demands are met. Never forget that freedom is not something that must be demanded by the oppressor. It is something that must be demanded by the oppressed. Freedom is not some lavish dish that the power structure and the white forces imparted with making positions will voluntarily hand down on a silver platter while the Negro merely furnishes the appetite.
If we are going to get equality, if we are going to get adequate wages, we are going to have to struggle for it. Now, you know what, you may have to escalate the struggle a bit. If they keep refusing, and they will not recognize the union, and will not decree further check-off for the collection of dues, I’m telling you what you ought to do, and you’re together here enough to do it. In a few days you ought to get together and just have a general work stoppage in the city of Memphis.
Now that shit will fire you up. Good stuff.
Notice he was very forceful and determined, but never said stupid stuff like “hurr let’s get the guillotine!”
Nor did he say “hurr it’s your duty to vote for the lesser-evil!”
Lol what a fruitful day of reading: since you mentioned Gandhi…
Non-cooperation with evil is as much a duty as is cooperation with good.
Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French.
A ‘No’ uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a ‘Yes’ merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble.
Fear has its use but cowardice has none.
Man lives freely only by his readiness to die, if need be, at the hands of his brother, never by killing him.
It is any day better to stand erect with a broken and bandaged head then to crawl on one’s belly, in order to be able to save one’s head.
Is it not enough to know the evil to shun it? If not, we should be sincere enough to admit that we love evil too well to give it up.
If co-operation is a duty, I hold that non-co-operation also under certain conditions is equally a duty.
Honestly, of all the civil rights figures you could have cited, Gandhi is the one who would tell you that non-cooperation with evil is more important than self-preservation. How on earth could you look at Gandhi and say; ‘he would want me to vote for the lesser evil’?
I thought we had worked this out earlier, talking about Bull Connor. I was all on board when I thought you were saying, let’s give Biden a hard time over Gaza. Now I’m a lot less sure what you’re saying.
Do you think working as a collaborator of the Raj, is more or less the same as voting for the clearly less-genocide-supporting of two arguably-genocide-supporting candidates?
Would this apply also to refusing to vote for Boutwell over Connor, or refusing to vote for the SDP (with all its colonial adventures in Africa and etc) over the NSDAP in prewar Germany?
No, he’s saying sticking with your principles is more important than even preventing your own harm. He pushed for change by being willing to sacrifice himself. He wasn’t just blindly non-violemt, he risked self injury to advance change
You keep fast-forwarding to voting day, but confidently standing your ground now is what moves the needle, not beating the drums of cooperation for Biden.
Yes, I know what Gandhi’s saying. I’m asking how you’d apply it to the present day, and you’re deflecting instead of answering.
You keep fast-forwarding to voting day
Oh sorry I must have replied to a message under the wrong meme or something; the one on my screen is different I guess.
(Edit: Also there’s this)
I keep asking you to clarify what you’re saying, and you treat it like it’s some sort of trick, and react with tactics instead of clarity. That’s a hallmark of propaganda. Just say what you mean, if you feel confident enough to stand your ground in it.
I think u accidentally replied to the wrong comment, but im starting to really love seeing ur name come up. Very well informed on a period in time most of us only know so much.
Wasn’t the us labor movement violent? I seem to remember something about troops firing on striking miners.
I love how centrists will confidently cite the civil rights movement without a hint of irony, and then completely ignore what those civil rights leaders had to say about the objections of moderates over direct action. They’ll silently downvote a direct quote from MLK without engaging with how it somehow doesn’t apply to them.
Direct action on Gaza sounds great.
Are you under the impression that MLK was saying, don’t vote for Boutwell in his election against Bull Connor, because Boutwell isn’t good enough to deserve our support?
He’s not making a comment on voting or not voting at all, in fact this is written after Boutwell was elected.
He’s addressing criticisms that directing protests at Boutwell before he has a chance to govern is misplaced and ill-timed, and he’s pointing out that while Boutwell may be gentler, he’s still a segregationist and is still in need of pressure. It doesn’t matter if one is gentler than the other, the goal remains the same, and no freedom is ever given by the oppressor without being demanded.
Biden is gentler, but he’s still a Zionist, and so he is still in need of pressure.
In case you’re unfamiliar with the rest of his letter, he’s also saying that the purpose of all direct action is to place pressure on moderates so that they may come to the negotiation table, even -and especially- direct action that causes material (in MLK’s case, non-violent) harm to those same moderates.
We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation
And I haven’t even gotten to the Malcom X quotes.
I know what he’s saying, yes. Like I say, pressure on Biden over Gaza sounds great, and it actually seems like it’s having an impact, although it’s still pretty fuckin mild compared with what the US should be doing.
Later in his life Malcolm X realized much of his youthful positions on things was stupid and he retracted them.
The trolls ive spoken to here are afraid of leftist solidarity. They claim they want change, but whine and cry the second you call for all roads for change to be taken. Mutual aid, direct action, and voting are praxis. We will have an impossible time trying to get any of those first 2 done under dumbass.
As someone on the far end of the left spectrum, any and all leftward movement must be embraced at all opportunities. How am i to convince anyone to work together with me, if I shit on their methods? All must be embraced. Some will be more effective, some less, but thats how we make connections.
Its about time this country learned what solidarity is.
Very well spoken. Even if the progress is minor, it’s helping some people, and that’s important. Obamacare was not the ultimate, perfect healthcare fix, but it did give a whole lot of people affordable healthcare where they didn’t previously. It was a cause worth supporting for that reason. And as someone who had to rely on it for a time, I greatly appreciate it.
If we’ve made someone’s life better or easier, we’ve succeeded. That to me is practical leftism. We help as many as we can as much as we can. Since we aren’t in unilateral power, that means we have to compromise. And working with colleagues will be more successful than being combative. The lone socialist in the Virginia House was able to get a lot done that way.
Thats a part of practical leftism indeed! Did the legalize end even the legal persecution of LGBTQ folks? Not entirely, look at the south. But it did( force a cultural shift. Suddenly it wasnt so cool to use gay as an insult and shit on queer ppl who looked/dressed/sounded a certain way.
The LGBTQ ppl in my life have been afforded the ability to step out of the closet with less fear than before. If im to march with them, this imperfect solution is working towards my ends as well.
Solidarity, comrade, regardless where ur politics are. I want liberation even for the righty whities that profess to hate us.
I really hope the majority of leftists are like you. I’m slightly more right, as a progressive, but I hope the more combative leftists I see online are just the loud minority.
You seem like someone that I could have a fun debate with over a beer about where we differ, and you have my respect.
Thanks dude.
The combative ones seem like trolls to me. I left a comment elsewhere outlining it, but leftist spaces on reddit were once open minded and places for critical thinking, not circle jerking. Our wing is being coopted ths way the right was in 2016. Only reason i speak to the trolls is so for everyone else to see.
Lol are you really going for this “notlikeotherleftists” persona? Buddy there’s already a name for that. It’s “liberal”. You’re talking like one, acting like one and voting like one.
Never said any of that. In fact, given the fact that theres groups like the Spanish anarchists who participate in govt, what im going for is exactlyliketheotherleftists. Except u know, the actual ones who understand that building bridges is how u make anything happen.
I’m childish enough that I’m irritated at my comment here being removed. Here’s the comment, which also applies to this meme:
You know that weak support for Hindenburg’s party was what let Hitler come to power, right?
Not that I agree that Biden is a lesser evil, but even within those parameters, there’s an absolutely glaring flaw in bringing up Nazi Germany while making the case that voting for the lesser evil is a bad idea
And when he asked for clarification:
My point is that the holocaust that gave rise to Niemöller’s quote in the first place happened because of weakened resistance from the SPD (the establishment left), which wasn’t getting support from the far-left of its day because it wasn’t left enough. When as a result the fascist party gained control, it put all the far-left people in camps, outlawed the SPD, and began killing people by the millions. Which in retrospect made the complaint that the establishment left wasn’t left enough to support, even against literal Hitler, seem short sighted.
Mod banned me. 🙂
I got banned from World News (apparently the .ml instance) for calling out russian talking points being used for this end.
Its not just calls for not voting, either. The other they love to stan is voting third party and pretending the spoiler effect doesnt exist.
A lot of the lemmy.ml subs are very explicitly one-viewpoint subs; the mods will take out comments which advance arguments they don’t like. It is a reason I don’t bother with them much.
I mean, it makes sense; the administrators argue for explicitly totalitarian states like Russia or China, so it makes sense they’d use the same sort of approach to discourse under their own purview. I am curious what their viewpoint would be if their local government showed up at their door and started treating them like Russia or China treat their social media; I think there’s a certain pick-me viewpoint like “obviously I would be one of the good and loyal ones and they’d leave me alone,” but I don’t think that is how it would work out.
Preach, comrade, preach.
All this gives actual leftist thought a bad name.
I want a fucking classless, cashless, stateless society. You cant get further away from that than china and russia, and u will certainly get further away if the man in the oval office works for one of the two.
Like it or not, neoliberal politics arent just going to go away worldwide, and being ignorant of the geopolitical consequences of our elections doesnt mean that ur somehow a magical snowflake that enilightened everyone by “not endorsing” a candidate by refusing to fill in a box next the name thats not trying to sell the country youre a part of, whether u like it or not, away.
It’s all related to storytelling, I think.
We love the underdog who was beaten so badly that they finally bit back, and won.
But generally that’s not how reality works. Most revolutions are preceded by a weakening of the authoritarian systems which were then overthrown, not an intensification of their repressive efficiency.
It’s tempting for many, thus, to look at a worsening situation and feel optimistic about it - “If things just get a little worse, then EVERYONE will finally have enough!” But as North Korea shows, there’s not much of a bottom to the level of suffering humans are willing to endure. The correct move is to support the candidates which inflict the least harm and most enable independent organization for more radical change.
Regardless of whether you believe in reform or revolution, making things worse is not the path there.
Exactly. i remember trying to make this point to tankies on lemmy sometime ago. Does the DPRK, china, russia, saudi arabia seem closer to revolution than us? Really? Bc our comrades in revolution or otherwise are going to be the most oppressed in society who stand to lose the most from a falling apart of the existing sociopolitical order.
All leftists should be united in furthering the aims of solidarity, weakening of hierarchy, and redistribution of wealth. Why should I, as someone who wants a cashless society, stand opposed to a decrease in wealth inequality? Why should I stand opposed to any amount of upward mobility from the downtrodden (read: the 99.99% of us)? I want justice and equity. Im not going to be upset when a coworker gets a raise, I will argue that not only do the rest of us deserve one to, but we all, including the first coworker, deserve more! Anything to even the playing field, doubly so if it recruits my peers to our side.
Enjoying reading ur takes, btw, on the whole.
Thanks. Sometimes I don’t feel ‘left’ enough, but ultimately, my sympathies are with those who want something better than this fucking hellworld. I just don’t want to splatter our metaphorical brains all over the walls in the process and hand power back to even shittier oppressors.
Lifes weird. I was having a great convo on this topic the other day with an anarchist (an actual one, that is). Im not an anarchist, i dont think, but i cant help it if i think much of their means are worth pursuing and working with. Their willingness to envision a utopia is radical an necessary, and the utopia they envision is close to what i imagine.
So in short, im “somehwhere” (gestures vaguely) off on the far left deep end, but i dont really care to narrow it down as much as pursue more of those means which i think benefit us all.
At the same time, this is fucking murica. We diverse. I work with all sorts of ppl that i get on with, and my overall goal in this world is to push everyone i can leftward somehow. Will they end up as far left as me? Lol, not answering that. But ive gotten righties to admit that insurance companies should he done away with, that single payer healthcare is the way, and even that trans folk just want to be left alone and, under single payer, deserve their healthcare needs (hormones, surgery, etc.) taken care of just as much as “we” (sorry, work is cisnormative) need ours. Its about reframing the issues so ppl see that we (all us poors) have a single common enemy that is never any of the ppl walking among us.
Youre not left enough? Cool, so u acknowledge it (/s :p). Honestly, it seems we agree on plenty, and ur on the same side when it comes to the election bs we’re putting up with. Cool, clearly, to me, that means we have mutual goals we can work together on and not impede each others progress on. If in the future we disagree, we will have already fostered the ability to talk to each other in friendly non combative terms and can bridge those gaps then.
If u dont believe in a classless, cashless, stateless society the way I do and I put u down as not left enough or as a lib, how can i hope to achieve that end? i propose instead mutual aid. Ill work with u so Status Quo Joe wins his stupid election that threatens us all, and after thats done, we can discuss what next movements need be done. Will it be convincing u of my ends then? Prolly not. But i can bet that youd likely be down for supporting candidates that want election reform and introduce (i.e.) ranked choice voting, and i think youd agree that that would take both of us closer to the ends we each seek- just like the actual anarchists and myself.
Solidarity, comrade. Solidarity.
I refuse to have Biden elected again just so he can sit in his office and say, “can you believe it? We supported a genocide and killed 30 thousand and people still voted for me!” I know the other option is trump the terrible but at least your strategically setting a precedence that this type of behavior is unacceptable and will send a signal to future presidents.
Its like giving a dog a cookie after they piss on the floor, dogs gonna think its ok to piss the floor. Their lesser evil strategy has grown so large and out of control they dont even recognize evil when it sends more bombs to Israel
If MLK was alive today, liberals would hate him as much as they did in the '60s
Already had a tankie tell me they’re voting 3rd party.
Putin thanks them while Ukrainians and Palestinians weep.
This is going to happen every election for the foreseeable future. Trump is not a illness he’s a symptom. Eventually a right winger is going to win because we’re stuck voting for a party that often ignores their constituents for business interests. That’s how we got Trump in the first place and the DNC learned nothing.
All the while we could vote third party like in most healthy democracies but we can’t because neither of the major parties want a third party and voters are to cowardly to vote 3rd party because “they won’t win anyway” even when they actually represent what they want in a on policy. See Nader and Bernie
Fact is neither Democrat or Republican is going to attempt to change s system that actively benefits them, especially in the higher positions of authority. The fact that voting 3rd party is considered throwing away your vote should be more embarrassing to Americans as a whole.
Tell me which democrats before Trump’s term was “ignoring their constituents for business interests” - show your work, please. Because you sound like a bipartisan moron.
If you can’t understand how bad trump was and will be, you’re fucking retarded. I agree that trump is a symptom but the disease is dumbasses that value social issues like abolishing trans rights and wanting to restore the ability to say the “hard R” without getting fired.
Biden (or his cabinet, whatever) has done so much good for this country that it fills me with a white hot rage that there’s still so much opposition to what is essentially the best presidency we’ve had in decades. You know what? I think you’re part of the problem. I think you don’t know the first thing when it comes to policies, legislation, bills, laws, economic incentives, budgets, etc. I think you think you’re just “looking at both sides, man”.
Sorry if that’s a bit harsh but you guys speak so confidently about issues you know nothing about. I’ll try to make it easier: if you’re a Democrat, vote Biden. If you’re not a Republican, vote Biden. If you don’t like Biden but hate Trump, then vote Biden. If you’re unsure (then you shouldn’t be allowed to have kids, honestly) vote Biden and thank me later. If you’re a Trump supporter I’ll pray for you but vote Trump. If you’re a Republican and don’t like Trump, I’m so sorry.
I get the feeling that a lot of these people think that somehow withholding their vote to punish Biden is some kind of ultimate punishment and it allows them to feel superior without having to do anything else to actually contribute.
Its tactical. The right is in distress bc theyre so damn unpopular and their base is shrinking while the left is growing. So, for our enemies, its time to turn us against each other and convince us “voting bad.” Bc low turn out is the only way they win. And they say, “but itll keep happening,” except, it wont. Bc theyre in distress. Bc theres less and less boomers to vote for shit. So now, on the eve of tides turning, “wah! Itll always be this way! Give up, dont vote! The right will eventually win!”
Yeah. Tell people that voting for Biden is a vote for the removal of MAGA from politics.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why someone who says they won’t vote for Biden shouldn’t be actively voting for Trump.
They’re the same thing… Like, on every level.
Nah the shit im seeing is more thay theyre the same thing so either dont vote bc fuck the system (and get full blown dictatorship, which the amerikiddies have never actually felt or heard first hand about to distinguish from authoritarian-lite biden) or dont vote/vote third party to push biden and the democrats left (which wont work in trump’s murica where the slightest political deviation will be criminalized). Or they want fascism to speed along the revolution they claim to want. Bc thats going great in russia -___-
There’s a lot of nuance and discussion that is just ignored by online people regarding this discussion. I’m sick of the fighting.
Change your horrible voting system. FPTP is the root of all this craziness
Agreed. We’re getting some traction on this but it is absolutely not possible for this year’s presidential election. This is a long-term goal that should not affect your voting this year.
And next election you will say THE EXACT SAME THING. It’ll never be the “right time” unless it’s all already falling in your lap. Democrats suck because they completely lack initiative. They think that unless they control the House, Senate AND Presidential office that “it’s impossible to get anything done!”.
Nah, those high up are perfectly happy with this and you’re just feeding into it.
