Thanks for the insight, I mean it. There is much agree with here — namely this: That the progressive grassroots organizers are the backbone of this country and that lacking voter-enthusiasm can cripple the momentum of the election, even if they vote themselves. I’ve made the same argument countless times when discussing the pitfalls of Hillary and to a lesser extent the risks to Biden. I also do agree there is merit to advocating for a policy that while it may be unpopular is the right thing to do. People with convictions are attractive; that’s what distinguishes a good leader from an average leader — one who can see ahead of the curve and convince people of a direction before they get there. Unfortunately I don’t think Biden is that; and I don’t think that can happen in the 8 months we have left. What the polls are will likely be where they remain for many of these issues.
My response breaks down across 4 main points:
Whether liberals will break with Biden, or whether progressives will — and really, neither of these groups will likely break. These aren’t the swing-voters in swing-states. What, are progressives who are traditionally the most-educated and civic-engaged ideological group suddenly decide to let Trump win? How will that advance their goals except for taking 2 or more steps back?
The vast majority of the shit that needs addressed and is being ignored as you mention is a direct result of the GOP obstructionism, combined with systemic such as the Supreme Court and Electoral College — NOT because Democrats don’t desire to do it. Every single thing Biden is doing is related to how popular things are; that’s the problem: appealing to millions of people from a wide variety of backgrounds. Sure you and I want the filibuster removed, but low-educated rural swing-voters in Ohio, Nevada, Arizona don’t even know what a filibuster is.
I worry there’s an element to the leftist movement that armchair purity tests at the cost of advancing progress. Instead of recognizing Bernie and AOC for what they’re doing — actually running for office and seeing how the system operates from the inside — there are a lot who just cast them off as never being on their side in the first place, which I personally think is heavily myopic. In other words: What’s more likely: that Bernie, AOC, Warren are traitors, or the Lemmy crowd of tankies of sub-22-year-olds are woefully out-of-touch with reality all the while possibly being subject to right-wing astroturfing to wedge-drive?
Yes the right-wing media machine will constantly call Biden Pro-Hamas, but it won’t stick as effectively with critical swing-voters and apathetics as if he, for example, withdrew aid. Forget the the massive risk again in doing so when if Israel suffers another October 7th then everyone will paint Biden as leaving Israel defenseless and antisemitic. This is simply not good optics and would give the propaganda from the right legitimate bite with said swing-voters. I’m no advisor to Biden but if I was this would certainly be a consideration, for I don’t even rule out a false-flag for Netanyahu.
Amazing discourse! Also, apologies in advance for being all over the place with my response because ADHD and dyslexia are hard when trying not to look like an idiot online haha.
Unfortunately I don’t think Biden is that; and I don’t think that can happen in the 8 months we have left.
This is kind of where we might differ here. Where Biden is staunchly pro-israel, his advisors know how much this issue is affecting his polling and could possibly get him to reverse his position if it becomes clear his position will lose him the election. I think that Biden’s difficult decision is between doing the right thing, knowing that there could be a false flag attack that will happen and cause immense blowback against him among moderates (as well as known civilian casualties) or doing the politically expedient thing and waiting it out and hoping people forget about Palestine (guaranteeing civilian casualties) before November to prevent trump becoming president.
I think a big thing causing apathy is the fact that conservative voters want to break things and republican representatives happily oblige their requests, where the liberals and progressives generally want rights enshrined, which is nearly impossible with how this government is currently set up to run, so liberals and progressives never really get what they want unless it’s attached to some pro-corporate or anti-privacy bill (or is watered down by republicans who just want to break it). From the perspective of someone not on the right, it seems like the government is broken because important things are never passed and terrible things are always passed. At some point, you start to think it’s by design since the people who represent you never fight for you like the republican representatives fight “for their constituents” (there’s a whole conversation about manufactured consent and propaganda to be had here, but to a conservative person, they at least are getting what they’ve been convinced they want).
I think some leftists are also accelerationists and would rather the worst case scenario happen so we as a society have to face the problems we’ve caused instead of slowly bleeding out, one minority group at a time. I’m not sure I’d put myself in this group, but knowing where our tax dollars are sent and seeing the carnage it creates even under a democratic president has made me view the system as inherently abusive. Being told that any amount of genocide could be classified as a “lesser evil” is such a wild take in my opinion and I’m not sure I could ever see a perspective in which my morals could bend like that to accommodate a president who would at least make my life easier than the other person when both of them have genocidal intent.
This is getting to be long and ranty, so I should probably address your 4 points.
“How will letting trump win advance leftist goals”
Metaphorically, if this was the trolly problem, leftists would rather push the trolly off the tracks or remove the people from the rails rather than pull the lever. If trump were to win and America did descend into a hellscape, I’d hope that anyone moderate and to the left would be willing to not accept that as reality. It would be 2 steps back, 10 steps forward if done correctly, which is way easier said than done, but if fascism’s legitimately knocking at the door, you don’t let it waltz in. You fix the gate outside so fascists can’t get to your door again. Biden has appointed Garland to oversee the process to keep fascism out, which has failed spectacularly because securing our electoral process against fascists wasn’t as important as possibly creating a political martyr. Just the fact that Trump is able to run again after J6 is reason enough for a lot of people to believe this political process has become farcical.
“Things that need addressing are being blocked by the GOP”
This will never not be the case though. It feels like we’re stuck in a purgatory where the democrats can continually to slide to the right and we’re forced to vote for them because a lame duck political party can never be worse than a fascist one. All while giving away our privacy, our ability to purchase a house or have the financial means to raise a child, our labor rights, our public land, our 3rd spaces, our clean water, etc because the alternative would be all of this plus fascism. It’s not a democratic choice at this point. Either we have a malignant group who wants to destroy America or we choose the alternative however bad they might also be. Would people be okay voting for trump if hitler was running against him? At what point do you throw up your arms and say something has to change? That point for me and many others is now.
“are progressive representatives traitors or is something else going on”
I think there’s probably some nuance missing specifically with these representatives when it comes to Israel Palestine. To change their tune on something that has been propagandized to us for decades as well as the collective understanding that antizionism actually isn’t the same as antisemitism, I can give a bit of grace for politicians being slow to act or even speak when trying to also not embolden racists. Having a megaphone that big can cause a lot of damage if you speak too quickly. But being 6 months late feels long regardless. And feeling like you no longer are represented by someone who calls themselves progressive is fair, so it’s up to them to make it up to constituents and it’s up to constituents to forgive and restore support if positive and real action is made. I do suspect there is quite a bit of astro turfing going on everywhere honestly. Propaganda like that works because it takes existing issues and amplifies them to become a political flashpoint. But this isn’t “teachers are putting litter boxes in classrooms because kids identify as cats” here. It’s live footage of kids getting bombed from our phone and knowing Biden is bypassing congress to make it happen. It’s a legitimate concern whether it has been amplified or not. I’m open to hear why I should consider their lives less important than mine, but I’m not sure I’m going to budge on my views there.
“Biden acting against Israel majorly affects moderates and their likelihood to vote for him as well as a false flag attack being likely to have massive blowback”
I fully agree with you here. If there is another attack right after Biden pulls aid, it doesn’t matter if it was the right thing to do, Biden will be crucified for it. I suppose we should get some counterintelligence people over there to make sure to prevent something like that. But even if Biden were to step down if another attack happened, I’m not sure if any moderate would vote for a democrat for a couple election cycles. Unfortunately for this game of political chess, I don’t adjust my moral line in the sand based on popularity. If there was ever an issue to be a single issue voter on, I suspect it might be this one.
No worries I can relate and appreciate the comment and apologies for taking so long to respond. Holidays, work, etc. For the record this will likely be my final response and I’ll oblige you with the final word
When we talk about “lesser” genocide, I’m referring to any friction, any resistance, any braking – if that means merely one less death than the inevitable alternative, then we should logically take that. I don’t have to like either option, but it’s always wiser to take the less-potent poison when it’s a forced dichotomy.
Like you I can’t reside in that camp of accelerationist “let it all crash and burn” because entropy dictates that picking up the pieces will be orders-of-magnitude more cost-intensive in all resources including time and lives.
Genocidal Intent is another thing; for I believe Trump has full intent of genocide while Biden does not have the intent of genocide. I think it is imperative we recognize that it is Netanyahu specifically committing genocide.
With respect to protesting Biden, not voting, and letting Trump in yet somehow derailing him as the proverbial trolly in a manner presumably akin to January 6th, I think that’s just a bridge too far. Why let it go that far to begin with when you can put the brakes on now while transforming the Democratic party as the nation shifts from being less conservative to more progressive as the old boomers die off?
This is the problem we have at hand: The vast majority of this country is still more conservative than we care to admit, and while there are people like us who are far ahead of the curve, we have to drag these people along with us like a ball-and-chain. We have to spoon-feed them reality at the right time and place, such as legalizing same-sex marriage, marijuana legalization, universal healthcare, etc… And eventually, we do get them to finally “catch up,” but it takes time.
I’m not too much of a fan of the idea of violent revolution; after all I have my kids to think of and we have all the tools at our disposal to avoid that right here and right now. Further I have to part ways with you on Garland, for I think he’s doing a fantastic job. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: You can have a strong legal case, or a fast legal case – but you can’t have both. Especially when concerning the unprecedented nature of the charges and status of the person you’re indicting – mostly because of the great amount of outside money that will prop up and defend Trump as your department will be smeared as a political witch-hunt. Garland is a straight-shooter in my book, and it was genius to appoint Jack Smith as special counsel. Whether it comes in time and whether the stacked SCOTUS will impact this is obviously the question, but perhaps we shouldn’t have abandoned Obama in crucial midterms both in 2010 and 2014 and this wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place.
I respectfully object to the notion that the GOP blocking everything will be a constant. I’m not sure how old you are but I remember a time when the line between the two parties was so blurred they really could be the same. Especially circa 2001-2003. It’s incredible we have progressives like AOC and Bernie and Warren who are taking senior leadership roles and who have legitimate influence over the party. Such individuals didn’t even exist within the Democratic coalition in Congress. Republicans are desperate. They know the writing is on the wall for their party. Their voting demographic is literally dying away and they are making enough inroads with other minority groups without ultimately disenfranchising the very base that is keeping them afloat: white males who are very often racist and bigoted. They’ve forked themselves, and every 4 years that drags by yields more to the Millennials and Zoomer generation. It’s almost inevitable they go the way of the Whigs, which is why they are so scared. Either way, I don’t feel this changes my original point which is to say that Biden cannot be blamed for not being more progressive when even the progressive policies he implements — such as a tuition bailout for the working-class — is blocked by the Right. Doesn’t matter WHO you put in there, that would be a given. So first we must focus on convincing people to join hands and wipe Republicans out. Only then we can focus on policy and the direction of the country.
If it were between Hitler and Trump I’d vote Trump out of his sheer incompetence but it would still be a problem; but let’s also not pretend that that the choices are remotely comparable to these; for I believe that’s woefully disingenuous. Biden has many good intentions but again are blocked by the other side. Meanwhile Hitler and Trump effectively share the identical ideological banner.
With respect to progressives perceiving the likes of AOC and Bernie, I must lean to the notion that they are still more informed on the nuances of the issues compared to the average critics thereof. More importantly they see the bigger picture of what is at stake. They know Biden is persuadable. They know Biden at least has concerns about Palestinians. They know Trump would NEVER say that Israel is committing “indiscriminate bombing.” They know there is no chance of withdrawing aid to Israel with Trump. They do know, however, there is a chance with Biden. Moreover such progressives absolutely did raise concerns sooner than 6 months; the only problem is that they know they can give the rope to let Israel hang themselves and in turn you USA can be perceived as reacting to their documented atrocities as opposed to getting ahead of polling and jeopardizing losing the election and letting the significantly-worse threat to Palestinians get in for 4 years. That is the gambit at play.
So my thought-process if distilled to bullet-points goes something like this:
Trump is far worse than Biden for both Palestinians, Ukrainians, and the American people.
The rematch and choice of these two candidates is inevitable.
Biden must therefore win the 2024 election.
Biden must toe the line between progressives and larger more critical voting-blocs of apathetic/ignorant swing-voters (of who 1/3 are undecided on Israeli actions and 1/3 support their actions), and progressive activists.
Biden cannot get ahead of the polls without risking reelection
Biden cannot withdraw aid without setting himself up for a false-flag.
The Democrats are softly pulling themselves away from Israel, which I think is the smart move.
Thanks for the insight, I mean it. There is much agree with here — namely this: That the progressive grassroots organizers are the backbone of this country and that lacking voter-enthusiasm can cripple the momentum of the election, even if they vote themselves. I’ve made the same argument countless times when discussing the pitfalls of Hillary and to a lesser extent the risks to Biden. I also do agree there is merit to advocating for a policy that while it may be unpopular is the right thing to do. People with convictions are attractive; that’s what distinguishes a good leader from an average leader — one who can see ahead of the curve and convince people of a direction before they get there. Unfortunately I don’t think Biden is that; and I don’t think that can happen in the 8 months we have left. What the polls are will likely be where they remain for many of these issues.
My response breaks down across 4 main points:
Whether liberals will break with Biden, or whether progressives will — and really, neither of these groups will likely break. These aren’t the swing-voters in swing-states. What, are progressives who are traditionally the most-educated and civic-engaged ideological group suddenly decide to let Trump win? How will that advance their goals except for taking 2 or more steps back?
The vast majority of the shit that needs addressed and is being ignored as you mention is a direct result of the GOP obstructionism, combined with systemic such as the Supreme Court and Electoral College — NOT because Democrats don’t desire to do it. Every single thing Biden is doing is related to how popular things are; that’s the problem: appealing to millions of people from a wide variety of backgrounds. Sure you and I want the filibuster removed, but low-educated rural swing-voters in Ohio, Nevada, Arizona don’t even know what a filibuster is.
I worry there’s an element to the leftist movement that armchair purity tests at the cost of advancing progress. Instead of recognizing Bernie and AOC for what they’re doing — actually running for office and seeing how the system operates from the inside — there are a lot who just cast them off as never being on their side in the first place, which I personally think is heavily myopic. In other words: What’s more likely: that Bernie, AOC, Warren are traitors, or the Lemmy crowd of tankies of sub-22-year-olds are woefully out-of-touch with reality all the while possibly being subject to right-wing astroturfing to wedge-drive?
Yes the right-wing media machine will constantly call Biden Pro-Hamas, but it won’t stick as effectively with critical swing-voters and apathetics as if he, for example, withdrew aid. Forget the the massive risk again in doing so when if Israel suffers another October 7th then everyone will paint Biden as leaving Israel defenseless and antisemitic. This is simply not good optics and would give the propaganda from the right legitimate bite with said swing-voters. I’m no advisor to Biden but if I was this would certainly be a consideration, for I don’t even rule out a false-flag for Netanyahu.
Amazing discourse! Also, apologies in advance for being all over the place with my response because ADHD and dyslexia are hard when trying not to look like an idiot online haha.
This is kind of where we might differ here. Where Biden is staunchly pro-israel, his advisors know how much this issue is affecting his polling and could possibly get him to reverse his position if it becomes clear his position will lose him the election. I think that Biden’s difficult decision is between doing the right thing, knowing that there could be a false flag attack that will happen and cause immense blowback against him among moderates (as well as known civilian casualties) or doing the politically expedient thing and waiting it out and hoping people forget about Palestine (guaranteeing civilian casualties) before November to prevent trump becoming president.
I think a big thing causing apathy is the fact that conservative voters want to break things and republican representatives happily oblige their requests, where the liberals and progressives generally want rights enshrined, which is nearly impossible with how this government is currently set up to run, so liberals and progressives never really get what they want unless it’s attached to some pro-corporate or anti-privacy bill (or is watered down by republicans who just want to break it). From the perspective of someone not on the right, it seems like the government is broken because important things are never passed and terrible things are always passed. At some point, you start to think it’s by design since the people who represent you never fight for you like the republican representatives fight “for their constituents” (there’s a whole conversation about manufactured consent and propaganda to be had here, but to a conservative person, they at least are getting what they’ve been convinced they want).
I think some leftists are also accelerationists and would rather the worst case scenario happen so we as a society have to face the problems we’ve caused instead of slowly bleeding out, one minority group at a time. I’m not sure I’d put myself in this group, but knowing where our tax dollars are sent and seeing the carnage it creates even under a democratic president has made me view the system as inherently abusive. Being told that any amount of genocide could be classified as a “lesser evil” is such a wild take in my opinion and I’m not sure I could ever see a perspective in which my morals could bend like that to accommodate a president who would at least make my life easier than the other person when both of them have genocidal intent.
This is getting to be long and ranty, so I should probably address your 4 points.
“How will letting trump win advance leftist goals” Metaphorically, if this was the trolly problem, leftists would rather push the trolly off the tracks or remove the people from the rails rather than pull the lever. If trump were to win and America did descend into a hellscape, I’d hope that anyone moderate and to the left would be willing to not accept that as reality. It would be 2 steps back, 10 steps forward if done correctly, which is way easier said than done, but if fascism’s legitimately knocking at the door, you don’t let it waltz in. You fix the gate outside so fascists can’t get to your door again. Biden has appointed Garland to oversee the process to keep fascism out, which has failed spectacularly because securing our electoral process against fascists wasn’t as important as possibly creating a political martyr. Just the fact that Trump is able to run again after J6 is reason enough for a lot of people to believe this political process has become farcical.
“Things that need addressing are being blocked by the GOP” This will never not be the case though. It feels like we’re stuck in a purgatory where the democrats can continually to slide to the right and we’re forced to vote for them because a lame duck political party can never be worse than a fascist one. All while giving away our privacy, our ability to purchase a house or have the financial means to raise a child, our labor rights, our public land, our 3rd spaces, our clean water, etc because the alternative would be all of this plus fascism. It’s not a democratic choice at this point. Either we have a malignant group who wants to destroy America or we choose the alternative however bad they might also be. Would people be okay voting for trump if hitler was running against him? At what point do you throw up your arms and say something has to change? That point for me and many others is now.
“are progressive representatives traitors or is something else going on” I think there’s probably some nuance missing specifically with these representatives when it comes to Israel Palestine. To change their tune on something that has been propagandized to us for decades as well as the collective understanding that antizionism actually isn’t the same as antisemitism, I can give a bit of grace for politicians being slow to act or even speak when trying to also not embolden racists. Having a megaphone that big can cause a lot of damage if you speak too quickly. But being 6 months late feels long regardless. And feeling like you no longer are represented by someone who calls themselves progressive is fair, so it’s up to them to make it up to constituents and it’s up to constituents to forgive and restore support if positive and real action is made. I do suspect there is quite a bit of astro turfing going on everywhere honestly. Propaganda like that works because it takes existing issues and amplifies them to become a political flashpoint. But this isn’t “teachers are putting litter boxes in classrooms because kids identify as cats” here. It’s live footage of kids getting bombed from our phone and knowing Biden is bypassing congress to make it happen. It’s a legitimate concern whether it has been amplified or not. I’m open to hear why I should consider their lives less important than mine, but I’m not sure I’m going to budge on my views there.
“Biden acting against Israel majorly affects moderates and their likelihood to vote for him as well as a false flag attack being likely to have massive blowback” I fully agree with you here. If there is another attack right after Biden pulls aid, it doesn’t matter if it was the right thing to do, Biden will be crucified for it. I suppose we should get some counterintelligence people over there to make sure to prevent something like that. But even if Biden were to step down if another attack happened, I’m not sure if any moderate would vote for a democrat for a couple election cycles. Unfortunately for this game of political chess, I don’t adjust my moral line in the sand based on popularity. If there was ever an issue to be a single issue voter on, I suspect it might be this one.
No worries I can relate and appreciate the comment and apologies for taking so long to respond. Holidays, work, etc. For the record this will likely be my final response and I’ll oblige you with the final word
When we talk about “lesser” genocide, I’m referring to any friction, any resistance, any braking – if that means merely one less death than the inevitable alternative, then we should logically take that. I don’t have to like either option, but it’s always wiser to take the less-potent poison when it’s a forced dichotomy.
Like you I can’t reside in that camp of accelerationist “let it all crash and burn” because entropy dictates that picking up the pieces will be orders-of-magnitude more cost-intensive in all resources including time and lives.
Genocidal Intent is another thing; for I believe Trump has full intent of genocide while Biden does not have the intent of genocide. I think it is imperative we recognize that it is Netanyahu specifically committing genocide.
With respect to protesting Biden, not voting, and letting Trump in yet somehow derailing him as the proverbial trolly in a manner presumably akin to January 6th, I think that’s just a bridge too far. Why let it go that far to begin with when you can put the brakes on now while transforming the Democratic party as the nation shifts from being less conservative to more progressive as the old boomers die off?
This is the problem we have at hand: The vast majority of this country is still more conservative than we care to admit, and while there are people like us who are far ahead of the curve, we have to drag these people along with us like a ball-and-chain. We have to spoon-feed them reality at the right time and place, such as legalizing same-sex marriage, marijuana legalization, universal healthcare, etc… And eventually, we do get them to finally “catch up,” but it takes time.
I’m not too much of a fan of the idea of violent revolution; after all I have my kids to think of and we have all the tools at our disposal to avoid that right here and right now. Further I have to part ways with you on Garland, for I think he’s doing a fantastic job. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: You can have a strong legal case, or a fast legal case – but you can’t have both. Especially when concerning the unprecedented nature of the charges and status of the person you’re indicting – mostly because of the great amount of outside money that will prop up and defend Trump as your department will be smeared as a political witch-hunt. Garland is a straight-shooter in my book, and it was genius to appoint Jack Smith as special counsel. Whether it comes in time and whether the stacked SCOTUS will impact this is obviously the question, but perhaps we shouldn’t have abandoned Obama in crucial midterms both in 2010 and 2014 and this wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place.
I respectfully object to the notion that the GOP blocking everything will be a constant. I’m not sure how old you are but I remember a time when the line between the two parties was so blurred they really could be the same. Especially circa 2001-2003. It’s incredible we have progressives like AOC and Bernie and Warren who are taking senior leadership roles and who have legitimate influence over the party. Such individuals didn’t even exist within the Democratic coalition in Congress. Republicans are desperate. They know the writing is on the wall for their party. Their voting demographic is literally dying away and they are making enough inroads with other minority groups without ultimately disenfranchising the very base that is keeping them afloat: white males who are very often racist and bigoted. They’ve forked themselves, and every 4 years that drags by yields more to the Millennials and Zoomer generation. It’s almost inevitable they go the way of the Whigs, which is why they are so scared. Either way, I don’t feel this changes my original point which is to say that Biden cannot be blamed for not being more progressive when even the progressive policies he implements — such as a tuition bailout for the working-class — is blocked by the Right. Doesn’t matter WHO you put in there, that would be a given. So first we must focus on convincing people to join hands and wipe Republicans out. Only then we can focus on policy and the direction of the country.
If it were between Hitler and Trump I’d vote Trump out of his sheer incompetence but it would still be a problem; but let’s also not pretend that that the choices are remotely comparable to these; for I believe that’s woefully disingenuous. Biden has many good intentions but again are blocked by the other side. Meanwhile Hitler and Trump effectively share the identical ideological banner.
With respect to progressives perceiving the likes of AOC and Bernie, I must lean to the notion that they are still more informed on the nuances of the issues compared to the average critics thereof. More importantly they see the bigger picture of what is at stake. They know Biden is persuadable. They know Biden at least has concerns about Palestinians. They know Trump would NEVER say that Israel is committing “indiscriminate bombing.” They know there is no chance of withdrawing aid to Israel with Trump. They do know, however, there is a chance with Biden. Moreover such progressives absolutely did raise concerns sooner than 6 months; the only problem is that they know they can give the rope to let Israel hang themselves and in turn you USA can be perceived as reacting to their documented atrocities as opposed to getting ahead of polling and jeopardizing losing the election and letting the significantly-worse threat to Palestinians get in for 4 years. That is the gambit at play.
So my thought-process if distilled to bullet-points goes something like this:
The Democrats are softly pulling themselves away from Israel, which I think is the smart move.