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Only as valued as their productivity.
That is a big part of it.
When the first question you are asked for decades when meeting someone is “What do you do?” it gets ingrained that your only value is what you do.
Add in the fact that men hitting that age now have basically never received any positive reaction for expressing any emotions or vulnerability and usually outright been mocked for doing so and it is no wonder they are are hard group to reach…
And they’re all totally socially isolated to boot. How the hell do you make friends as an adult?
And where do you even go? Civic centers, bowling alleys etc are dead. Moderate churches are disappearing. Car centric everything means if you have a disability or not much money you’re screwed.
As with most things, the hardest part is the first step: you have to find a community to join. It can be anything, but senior centers are greater resources for older people that they unfortunately don’t take enough advantage of. My parents found a seniors’ program at a local college and started taking classes with people their age, which created an entirely new friend group for them. You just have to find a group of people doing something you enjoy and the relationships will likely form without much effort after that, provided you don’t have crippling social anxiety or something else that makes social interaction difficult. Point is, once you get the ball rolling, momentum takes over; the hardest part is getting it (i.e. yourself) moving.
Left my country and the coldness (not just the weather) was such a huge part of it.
You need a group that’s small enough to allow for personal interaction, but large enough that there’s enough people that you’re more likely to find ones you click with. It’s easy enough to do online - a lot of people meet in games like MMOs and on social media sites. You already share a common interest, and if you click you can expand your friendship outside of that immediate context. Even within the context, you get friends and community.
Real world kinds of places can include things like a men’s choir or a community theater group if that’s your demographic. Those can lead to Saturday brunches and such. There’s also places like dog parks where you can hang out with other dog owners, and sports groups like bowling and ultimate that have various levels of serious vs fun. There’s also a lot of volunteering opportunities.
Some groups can be cliques that can make it harder to get into at first, and just like in dating you can’t let a negative experience turn you off from the whole scene.
I’ve seen a few people complain about the question “what do you do?” over the years, and I think it’s pretty telling that most people seem to interpret that as “what is your job?”
For me, my job is a footnote to my life, it’s not something I’m overly proud of, if I woke up rich tomorrow I’d never go back to work, it’s just how I fund the rest of my lifestyle.
I tend to answer that question with my hobbies, things I’m working on, trips I’m planning, etc
Sort of a double-edged sword is that I do actually work a pretty interesting job that people really want to hear about when they find out what I do, and I’d really rather talk about the other things I do. Probably the one thing I miss about when I was a random schmuck working a shitty warehouse job, I didn’t have to talk about work outside of work as much
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How people make money is often the most boring thing about them. A whole lot of the prestigious jobs that make big bucks that people like to brag about boil down to a whole lot of paperwork, emails, and phone calls, I don’t want to hear about that, that’s the kind of stuff I make any excuse I can to avoid thinking about.
If they’re making big bucks though, hopefully they’re doing something cool with it, they can tell me about their ski trips, or yacht trips to private islands or whatever rich people do these days, that’s what I want to hear about it. If the only thing they can come up with to say that they “do” is a job doing the boring shit I try to avoid, that’s their own fault. They’re free to judge me, I’m judging them right back, they’re wasting their lives.
And most of the time my current job is far more interesting than theirs anyway even if it’s not as prestigious.
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It sounds like you’re hanging out with the wrong kind of people if they are asking that question to judge you. I find most people ask that question as its a baseline question on getting to know someone, so hobbies would be a perfectly acceptable response
Sort of a double-edged sword is that I do actually work a pretty interesting job that people really want to hear about when they find out what I do, and I’d really rather talk about the other things I do.
Yeah but what do you do for work doe?
911 dispatch
911 dispatch
That is pretty interesting!
Right? Don’t get me wrong, I have some cool stories, and I don’t blame people for being more interested in those than tales from my hiking trips or D&D game or hearing about my latest attempt at woodworking or whatever, but I’d rather talk about those.
r D&D game
Mix it up sometimes!
“HELP I’m being robbed!”
“Roll for initiative.”Well, I’ll take a D&D story too if you don’t mind.
My current group is playing Schedules & Conflicts so, got an itch u noe?
That’s been one of the culture shifts I’ve noticed moving to the EU. People are a lot less likely to lead with that question here than in the US.
When the first question you are asked for decades when meeting someone is “What do you do?” it gets ingrained that your only value is what you do.
Exactly. I stopped asking that question because I don’t wanna be asked that anymore. I ask other guys what their hobby(ies) is(are).
I’ve been saying “it’s private” for years.
I’ve always taken that question as a form of trying to find common interests. If you answered it with your hobbies, it would fulfill the same purpose which is getting conversation started.
If you asked me “well, how much do you make?” that would be way more pointed towards “productivity”.
I can partially speak to this from the inside so to speak. I’m not that old, but I had a heart attack and open heart surgery at the end of 2018 and complication after complication through all of 2019.
All of which puts me at greater risk for depression and suicide.
Just when I was medically cleared to go back to the office, we shut down for covid and I haven’t been back since.
I started looking for a support group for heart attack/open heart surgery survivors and it was far, far more difficult than I thought.
Plenty of support groups for other conditions, plenty of support groups that advertised as women only, I really couldn’t find anything that accepted men.
I didn’t need a “mens only” group, just someone who wouldn’t turn me away due to my gender.
I finally reached out to one of the women’s groups going “Look, I know I’m not your demo, but I hope you can direct me…”
They set me up with a national org, https://mendedhearts.org/ who had an unbranded chapter in my area and I got to talk to people in my situation, it helped, but it was not easy getting there.
There were other problems during lockdown, I became a victim of domestic violence, against which I was helpless due to my medical conditions.
Same problem. No real support for male victims of domestic violence either.
The police directed me to various mental health agencies, for both myself and my wife, but this was peak covid and NONE of them called us back. NONE. Not even a “sorry, we aren’t taking new patients”, they just completely ghosted us.
My wife finally found a therapist who would “see” her remotely, which was a condition of our staying married, and things did get better.
But after all that… it was really dumb luck. Other folks aren’t as lucky.
I just want to say something about the mental health practitioners not calling back:
It’s the worst part about getting help is how hard it is to find. This is true for all folks, too. So, I just want to provide a quick how-to because I’ve been through that particular step 5 or 6 times and it’s only slightly less annoying when you know the best steps to take. Not saying you didn’t do all these things, and not saying you shoulda known if you didn’t, but this is for anyone reading this. This also only applies for US. Idk how other countries do it, but it’s probably better than this.
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Insured? Skip step 2 and 3
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Find your health care. Call the number(s) on the back. Reach a human (never easy). Ask for a list of mental healthcare practitioners that are within x miles of CITY. use biggest nearby city for best results. Or just say STATE if your state is small enough. Regional accuracies may vary.
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Go to psychologytoday.com or google around for another mental healthcare finder. Use the list you got from your insurer.
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Search by your conditions at a site line psychologytoday.com. curate as long a list of options as you can for your area.
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Mass email to all of them. “Hi. I’m dealing with SYMPTOMS, I have this healthcare. I was wondering if you were accepting new patients.” Send.
Within 1 week, if you have no response, re email all of them and say you got no response and you’re really trying to find help, and if they could give you recommendations, that would be great.
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Setup appointments. First sessions suck. And it takes a solid 3 sessions to know for sure if someone is a possible fit.
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If they’re not a good fit, you go back to your list. This repetition is exhausting, especially because when you finally reach out for help, you’re at a breaking point, and all of this feels like too much already. Keep going.
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Hopefully you find someone that’s a good fit through this process. It sucks. Hang in there.
This is all great advice. The issue I in particular have and a lot of other guys probably do as well is that I only ever get like 4-5 sessions with any therapist before they basically start booting me out the door. The issue is that per society I’m perfectly functional. I work, I pay my bills, I take good enough care of myself that I function. I’ve never attempted suicide (although stats show most guys only attempt is the sucsessful one.) I’m a low priority. I’m not a statistically high suicide risk. I’m not at risk of becomming homeless. I’m not being abused or abusing drugs. I’m already receiving medication that kind of works. All in all my situation is not dire so naturally the people who are in a more dire situation get prioritized and there are a lot of people in more dire situations.
I have enough of a medical background to know how triage works and I get that that is what is happening but it still just sucks. No place will actually keep me on long enough for me to improve at all and even if I do start to improve I get dumped at the first slightest sign of improvement. So I’m just stuck perpetually “functioning”. It’s kind of like the wellfare cliff. I’m doing just well enough that there’s no long term help available.
I read your response with interest and empathy. However, I feel it’s important to address a few misconceptions for the benefit of anyone reading this.
Firstly, the idea that mental health practitioners prioritize patients based on their societal functionality or perceived risk level is not accurate. In the United States, mental health professionals are bound by ethical guidelines that stress the importance of client-centered care. This means that treatment decisions should be based on individual needs and therapeutic goals, not on a patient’s external life circumstances like job stability or living situation.
If you’ve repeatedly been discharged from therapy after only a few sessions, this is concerning and not a standard practice in mental health care. Therapists are trained to provide ongoing support, and decisions to conclude therapy should ideally be mutual and based on progress and goals, not on arbitrary measures of functionality.
Also, the concept of ‘triage’ in mental health doesn’t operate the same way as in emergency medical settings. While it’s true that individuals in crisis might need immediate attention, this doesn’t mean others are deemed ‘low priority.’ Everyone’s mental health needs are important, and a good therapist understands this.
If you or anyone else feels that your therapy is being prematurely concluded or that you’re not getting the depth of support you need, it’s crucial to bring this up with your therapist. If the issue persists, seeking a second opinion or a different therapist might be necessary. It’s important to find a therapist who resonates with your needs and provides the required level of support.
While your experiences are valid and unfortunate, they are not reflective of standard mental health practice. I encourage anyone seeking therapy to advocate for their needs and keep searching for a therapist who offers the right support and commitment.
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Men can help each other and SHOULD help each other. Women’s groups exist because women recognized issues and organized themselves to help each other. This is why women’s DV shelters exist, for example. (BTW, women’s DV shelters may help men in need, there are arrangements that can be made to help but keep women and kids separated for their mental health and safety.)
Men can do the same thing and should do the same thing. Perhaps growing that sense of community and learning how to help others will build the social support that men seem to be lacking. But you men have to do it collectively yourself - no one “somebody” will do it for you.
I hope you are doing better these days. (Edit): I do not expect you personally to be able to do the hard work of organizing a DV shelter. This is why it is so important for men as a class to work together to support each other too.
thats good and all but am I the only man who can pretty much only connect with women, on an emotional level?
I’ve had some good male friends but expecting them to understand or relate is very difficult.
It’s not especially surprising to hear. Women are raised their whole lives to play emotional support with everyone.
Which is also why all their friends invariably turn into unrequited love: they’re just treating their guy friend identically to how they treat their women friends, but the guy’s never received the basic decency of consideration unless it was romantic.
But men are trained to problem solve whatever they can’t stuff down and ignore, aren’t they? And from what I’ve heard, hanging out generally prohibits anything emotionally heavy?
They’re logically in the same position you are. I would find it hard to believe at least one person among them doesn’t relate. It would make more sense to me to wonder if they just…have no idea how to be supportive. A distressing number of grown men can’t even put a name to their feelings beyond “sad” and “pissed off.”
What do they do if you just…tell them you feel like that? A friend who doesn’t care to address what you’re going through or to rectify that kind of relationship disconnect when it’s brought up isn’t really a friend. Maybe an acquaintance at best.
What do they do if you just…tell them you feel like that?
They are either dismissive or don’t understand. I often have to educate them on topics of mental health which is tiring after years without support of my own.
In my experience as the female friend, no, this is common. However, perhaps you should ask yourself why this is. Men as a whole class in our society do not seem able to connect emotionally and empathically with each other because they haven’t learned how to. You can (as a group) learn to do this, but you collectively need to decide you want to and to act.
You can (as a group) learn to do this, but you collectively need to decide you want to and to act.
Let me just bring it up at the next Boys Club meeting /s
So become the founding member of the Boys Club. It’s not necessarily going to be easy, but if it’s worth doing, you should stick to it.
Edit: I was the leader of a labor organizing group for a year or so until it was shut down by state shenanigans… So I do have experience in building a group and solidarity.
Women’s groups exist because women recognized issues and organized themselves to help each other. This is why women’s DV shelters exist, for example.
Isn’t this essentially victim blaming and overlooks the very real societal issues and trama that hinders men getting support? You know funding, not being believed by both sexes, lack of awareness, society just not generally caring about men, etc
No. Women for a very long time were not considered fully realized humans in a legal sense. Hell, women couldn’t have bank accounts separate from their husbands until the 1970s.
My point is that women were victims and not even fully recognized legal entities and they STILL decided they wanted to help themselves; they organized themselves; and made progress on women’s issues.
If “society” doesn’t believe men or care about men, well, who is it with those negative attitudes? Society is about 50% women and 50% men. Seems to me a lot of men are not believing men as well as any women not believing men, given the current landscape. You belong to one of those groups. As a member of your class, you can be energized to make change.
No one is going to be an advocate for you (or your class) as much as you yourself. That’s not victim blaming, that is telling you how to actualize change in the world.
I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis in 2017 and it’s shit.
The pain that comes with that is just phenomenal and there’s no good treatment for it either. :(
I’m in a good place now, but I take a lot of meds (some of which are literal poison) and a very expensive infusion. I have excellent insurance, but six years to get back to being able to move has been fun.
I hope you have great holidays this year and better things to come next one.
I hope you’re doing better physically and mentally kind sir. Thanks for sharing your story.
Somewhat related, but I learned today that Phil Shea who worked as the prop master on the office, died by suicide earlier this week, he was 62. He had a family and friends who loved him, but clearly wasn’t speaking to anyone about what was really going on in his head. Older guys tend to be more closed up about speaking up
Cuz society mocks and looks down upon men who open up and talk. There’s very little room for error being a man.
Every time I’ve opened up it’s been ignored at best and ridiculed at worst. I just stopped.
Thankfully this is changing… I see a clear divide in attitudes in my workplace between the boomers nearing retirement, and the new kids (Gen Z) that are coming in fresh out of college. And all I can say is: good riddance. Boomers are fucking toxic.
“But this generation is different!”
Give me a break.
Phil Shea
Oh shit actually a name I’ve heard that means something to me. That’s no fun news :(
Societies that have been created around the concept that your life is worth as much as the value you produce. People are deeply ingrained with the idea that if you aren’t part of the production line then you may as well die and get out the way for the next cog.
To this day, this mentality still benefits the higher up in those societies.
That’s not just an idea - its physical reality. You can’t get your physical needs met in old age if you didn’t win the lotto. Suicide is the retirement plan for most of us non-boomers.
Don’t worry, climate collapse of all ecosystems is our retirement in like 3 years or something like that
Glad to see an article about suicide focused specifically on men for a change. I wish it went into more specific detail about the societal treatment of men and how it fuels their mental health issues, but some attention is better than nothing.
I’ve seen a lot of those lately. At least in Polish media it was a very popular topic recently. Of course still nothing is being done to address. Then again, what are you going to do? In the end it’s really men doing it to themselves. How are you going to change what men think about what ‘being a men’ means?
My dad died in his late 80s of Parkinson’s. For at least a decade before his diagnosis he’d tell me that everyday when he woke up, he’d lost another piece of himself. He went from an active man in his early to mid 70s–he rode his bike 25 miles a day and weight lifted–to a shadow of himself very quickly.
It was tough to watch, and so much tougher for him facing loss after loss of his abilities. He spoke several times of “releasing” himself, but ultimately decided not to do it.
We are living longer, but that isn’t always to our benefit.
Sorry for your loss. Your dad sounds like a good guy. I wish we all had a better and easier way to die with dignity and on our own terms.
I’ll probably kill myself at that age too
Shit I’m 40 and regret not having done so.
do you want to hang out and suck each other’s dicks? I don’t even care anymore
Lmao. No, thank you, but I appreciate the offer.
See, you do still have the will to fight!
Damn that’s some therapy check mate shit yo
Lemon party detected.
I’ve thought about it plenty in the last few years. The only things really stopping me is the idea of hurting my still-living mother, and my kids.
Watching my Dad decline in his later years was really tough, the man I had known my entire life just fell apart month by month, week by week until he was just a shell of a person. I don’t know when it happened, but the person I had known my whole life had already died before his body died later on. Seeing what I saw over the course of years as he declined, I would’ve completely understood if he had committed suicide well before. It would’ve been shocking and hard to take, but if he realized what was happening, felt himself slipping away, I wonder if he hadn’t at least considered it. He retired a year before he died at 63 and never really got to enjoy his retirement.
The capitalists tortured your father out of your father month by month, week by week, until only a shell, no longer productive, was cut loose to die as it was no longer useful to them.
That is what the capitalists do to us while they live large and pat themselves on the back for it.
Are you deadass using suicide as a stage to spew agitprop? You should feel ashamed of yourself, this is beyond ghoulish.
It’s been studied. Books have been written about alienation and isolation in capitalism.
I feel myself heading this way. So much of my identity is wrapped up in what I can do and service I can provide. When my body fails, and it’s starting to slow down even now, what will my identity be?
Saw this happen to my both my grandfathers, one died around 60 and the other around 80. Even the 60yo one, watching the mental decline was heartbreaking. Being left with literally nothing, losing your memories while you lose control of other parts of your body, these men were long gone long before they passed. Nothing in this world scares me like aging with dimentia does. You literally lose the person, sometimes completely, before they even die and you gotta sit there and be strong for them knowing that the slow desent will come for you too, and thats only if you’re lucky enough to get that old. It’s just not fair for anyone and there’s scarcely any dignity in death.
I’m sorry for your loss friend, the hardest thing in my life is watching my loved ones slip away before they’re gone.
The founding culture of individualism in America have led to excessive isolation. The atomisation divided communities and separated people from one another. And with globalisation many people have been left out. Which in turn led to many atomised inviduals seeking desperately for any socialisation, many of whom turned to Trump.
I would also probably off myself at this age, seeing all the fuck ups that my generation did Holy shit.
What a waste if they don’t take someone horrible with them.
what the actual fuck is wrong with you
Yet America still wants to control the world.
I am not from the US but similar stories and stats exist for my own country.
If you think any country is handling this better, please tell us which one it is.
(and, of course, back it up with solid data…)
You should be ashamed of yourself, it’s an article about the horror that is suicide and you try and turn it into your personal beef with America. Shut the fuck up.
What the fuck are you talking about
