$15/hr is 10 years ago, now it should be 25
It’s needs to be raised and indexed to inflation.
Raising it alone is not enough. We’ll just spend another thirty years fighting for the next increase.
Some democratic states have actually done that like California and New York. There’s been bills from some dems representatives to do that federally in the past
If dems get a tricecta, I suspect some dems would push for that again
And then other Dems would block it! Sorry, I have no faith in good things happening. Still voting Dem though.
I was pleasantly surprised with some of the bills Biden tried to pass while he had the absolute slimmest of majorities 3 years ago. My disdain for conservative Democrats was also very much strengthened through that experience…
Agreed, and that’s why I vote as progressive as I can in primaries.
Ideally, it would.
But there is also a perverse incentive in politics against permanent solutions - as once Dems pass a law increasing/indexing the minimum wage, it’ll eventually become normalised after a couple cycles and people will fall back into their old ways and switch back to voting against their interests (GOP) due to social issues.
And Arizona
deleted by creator
This is hiw businesses win this game. Whine about it to the point the amount you’re asking isn’t even enough, demand subsidies to increase wages and then give pretty much the same they paid a few years ago, pocketing the rest.
“Business innovation”
Perhaps part of the problem is a fixation on the specific number and lack of consideration for the material needs of the people. How much does it cost to live in your city? That’s the minimum wage. Is that $120/day? Is that $200/day? Is that $5000/day? That needs to be the wage floor.
Feel like you’re spending too much money on labor? See about reducing the cost of living, then we can talk.
Minimum wage means minimum livable wage, and “livable” isn’t the same as “survivable”.
Anyone working should be able to afford the amenities we call living, not just scraping by. Children, transportation, food, healthcare, reasonable recreation, savings, retirement, self development and actualization. All of it.
People not working should be able to survive, and we should do everything we can to get them to that “living” point as well. Disability or a bad labor market shouldn’t close someone off from eating, having children or going to the doctor.I agree. I don’t see much point in raising the federal minimum wage beyond $15/hr until we make landlords extinct. As long as there are leeches who have free reign to charge whatever they want for a basic human necessity, any raises will just flow right into their already overstuffed pockets.
Yeah, fixating a number is not the best, that was my point. We should have minimum dividand attached to an index.
$25 minimum. Those two jobs are much more valuable than tech project managers.
i say $30, easy, maybe more.
I live in a VHCOL area and $30 actually gets you the ability to save… If you rent a garage “apartment” and keep a partially empty fridge… Yet those salaries are still non-existent for anyone outside of a profession.
Let’s make it a nice round $30/hr and call it a day.
We should shoot for $60/hr so by the time that passes in 25 years it might be only slightly below a living wage.
Hourly Rate Yearly Salary
$10 $20,800
$15 $31,200
$20 $41,600
$30 $62,400
$40 $83,200
$50 $104,000
$75 $156,000
$100 $208,000
To make an average wage (roughly 62k according to the national average) it’ll need to be $30 an hour minimum.
We have a locality pay scale BAKED IN to federal salaries. Federal salaries are established and updated yearly. Using this, we could get rid of a dedicated minimum wage number. All we need to do is set the minimum wage to the lowest amount a federal employee could be paid in that location, and you’re all set. Federal minimum wage debate solved.
If the government can’t find employees, then they need to raise the locality pay there, or bump up the payscale across the board. Same could be done for the minimum wage
You can’t make the minimum the average lol
You can if you want to increase the average…
You thought inflation was bad before lol
Inflation is directly related to the amount of money being printed by the federal reserve.
Anyone really worried about inflation should be concerned about how wallstreet and the fed are in bed together. But wallstreet and the fed both do anything they can to distract everyone from that simple truth. The day it is made illegal to hire someone out of government to any banking or wallstreet firm that SHOULD be a conflict of interest is the day you will see a monetary policy that makes sense for the average worker instead of wallstreet. So of course because of this it will never happen in the USA.
Inflation is directly related to the amount of money being printed by the federal reserve.
But not solely related. Everything you just said was beside the point.
You can if you want people to be able to live in some degree of comfort, security, and dignity
That’s not how economics works. Like at all. It’s what a 10 year old would do if given control of the economy.
It can be, and theres no good reason it shouldn’t be that way. Economics is man made concept that can be changed at will, it isn’t some infallible law of nature
Economics is man made concept that can be changed at will
Possibly the most naive statement in history. Holy shit, read a history book.
Ive read plenty and our modern concepts around economics don’t go back that far. There have been innumerable societies that were able to create generally equitable systems of resource distribution throughout human history that weren’t contingent on modern concepts around economics. If those before us were able to do it with significantly more limitations, there’s no reason we can’t do it (and even improve upon it) now. Try reading some books that don’t lick boot
Would you care to give an example of a successful society of the past that achieved what you are describing without slaves or other means of super cheap labor. I can’t think of a single one but I am very interested.
My rule of thumb is “the less I’d like to do a job, the more the person doing it should be paid.” It works well for all the so-called unskilled jobs that get routinely exploited.
Not bad, has a few problems though, I would never want to be a banker, even worse an investment banker, yet those fuckers earn way more than I want them to
Being disabled after a decade of working is fun.
Went from making $36 an hour to… about $11.50 from SSDI.
Was too injured to even apply for unemployment in time, not that it would have mattered as I was utterly incapable of ‘seeking work’.
More fun examples of how the poor live
Pro: Managed to Qualify for Section 8 in only 6 months.
Con: It almost certainly won’t matter, as I got evicted from the inability to work, and now my credit score is also abysmal, and all Section 8 is is privately owned apartments (cough slumlords cough) who choose to accept a portion of rent and utility payments from Sec 8, that can absolutely refuse you for an eviction or bad credit, and have their own waitlists.
Once awarded a Section 8 voucher, well they expire in a couple months if you don’t find a place. So you have to wait months or years again for Section 8 applications to even open up again, then apply for Section 8 and wait months or years to be awarded a voucher again, and then apply to Section 8 accepting slums with gigantic waitlists again.
Roach motels for my foreseeable future!
I say make it a gradient based on zip codes.
High enough that the local average rent is no more than 30% of it.
Doesn’t just make sure workers get paid adequately wherever they are, also provides a slight incentive towards making jobs in less developed regions of the country to bring more jobs out to the exurbs and such.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
They’ll get you there by 2035 when the cost of living is close to $50 wages
Bold of you to think it will be any higher in 2035 than it is now.
Are you aware that that would be more than double what the (inflation-adjusted, of course) minimum wage has ever been in US history?
deleted by creator
TL;DR: The EPI graph isn’t measuring productivity vs. pay, even for “typical workers”; it’s measuring wage inequality, and images like these are the visual equivalent of out-of-context half-truth soundbites:
https://www.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/6rtoh4/productivity_pay_gap_in_epi_we_trust/
People they and everyone else depend on that they don’t respect.
raising min wage doesn’t raise prices… that’s conservative bullshit
“we find prices grow by 0.36 percent for every 10 percent increase in the minimum wage.”
Ah, early 2021… back when $15/hr was at least somewhat decent. Heck, $15/hr was being fight for about a decade before even then. Maybe in ten more years $15/hr will become minimum wage and politicians will pat themselves on the back and claim they’re the most pro-worker politician in US history for instituting a minimum wage that was argued for two decades in the past.
No, they shouldn’t make $15 an hour. They should make whatever is needed to sustain themselves and a family, including a pension and any healthcar costs. That’s probably well over $15 an hour.
i think the last time i saw someone do the math, that by the time 15 is fully rollled out everwhere the minimum would need to be like 26-30 dollars an hour to keep up with ridiculous costs of everything.
It’s easy to shit on everything, so I’ll try to avoid doing that.
I do genuinely not understand the blind “minimum wage should be this” angle. All raising the minimum wage does is raise expenses for everything. It’s pretty much like fuel costs: price of fuel goes up - your bakery, pharmacy, grocer, etc all raise prices and in the end it is those on the lowest income that get impacted the most.
A bit of a mind dump:
- Most of us live in a capitalist system. You can dislike it all you want, but as someone who’s seen what happens when
ownership is shared, everyone is equal, a cook should be able to run a country- fuck that. I’ll take bad capitalism over that nonsense any day. - Everyone should strive to improve themselves. Every day. Doesn’t have to be monetarily driven improvement - it’s the mindset of constant improvement that I want. And when that happens - aiming for minimum wage becomes a thing of the past.
- Everyone is not equal. Everyone must be given equal opportunity. We’re good at different things, we absolutely suck at different things. Doesn’t mean we’re bad/wrong/mistreated if we try those things. What is wrong, however, is someone claiming they deserve something (great salary) when they suck at doing whatever they’re doing. Just go do something else; preferably something you’re good at.
- Deep inside - we’re apes. We need to keep ourselves busy as otherwise brain starts overcompensating for lack of activity and we end up being idiots on the internet. Given enough time that leads to us being idiots outside the internet as well.
- Mental health issues are real. They’re abused waaaay too much as an excuse to rot in the basement. Been there, done that. Start small, increment daily. Small, iterative steps. Everything takes time. Your choice on what gets your spend.
but as someone who’s seen what happens when ownership is shared, everyone is equal, a cook should be able to run a country - fuck that. I’ll take bad capitalism over that nonsense any day.
Nice strawman… You sure showed that completely made up political/economic philosophy who’s boss!
If you work 40 hours a week you need to earn enough to live in the city where you do said work. Period.
Also, wages are only a small part of costs for pretty much everything. +10% wages does NOT mean +10% total costs for whatever that worker provides, and so does NOT mean +10% price, if the company is honest.
Now that my teens are working, I’m a bit uncomfortable with this. Does my teenager, whose living expenses are still fully paid by me, really need a living wage? We’re a $15 minimum wage so He’s excited about the money he’s making, but part of me feels like he’s taking some of that from someone who needs it
I guess it comes down to that it’s a job, that anyone can fill. Also that some teenagers may need a living wage
deleted by creator
I don’t know whether to upvote you on the difficulty of defining a kids job or downvote on thinking there’s some sort of a lesson different than: he’s a kid with a temporary part time job, not an adult or independent.
Obviously I’m all for him earning more and wish him every success. However speaking from a much more general perspective: should there be any exceptions to livable wages annd is this one? Is there a reasonable way to even do that?
It’s certainly not my intent to judge you or make assumptions, but that seems like kind of a weird perspective, to believe your kid should make less than their peers for providing the same labor. There are plenty of households who humbly ask their working teens to contribute a portion to bills.
deleted by creator
All raising the minimum wage does is raise expenses for everything.
Demonstrably false. Prices will always go up regardless. Nobody should have to work for less than a liveable wage. If you disagree with me you are a piece of shit.
Of all the things you could’ve said you chose one of the dumbest.
Demonstrably false. Prices will always go up regardless.
Uh, this is a total non-sequitur. It’s like arguing that also getting shot will not affect the situation of someone who’s been stabbed.
Just because prices are going up does not mean that something else can’t also make them go up (more/faster), what a bizarre assertion.
Nobody should have to work for less than a liveable wage.
Should people be forced to hire workers who cost more than they produce?
I don’t see how both of these conditions can be met simultaneously, and unless they both are, there is still unresolved unfairness to contend with. What do you suggest?
If you disagree with me you are a piece of shit.
You’re not nearly as omniscient as you think you are, to make such an arrogant statement.
lol fuck off moron
Someone’s mad that their idealism was confronted with inconvenient truths, lol.
I hope one day you’ll mature enough not to react so childishly to being contradicted.
- Most of us live in a capitalist system. You can dislike it all you want, but as someone who’s seen what happens when
The answer to all of these is actually no… Because it should be $23.
This is how long the fight for 15 has been going on. We will finally get 15 when minimum wage should be 46 dollars
I suspect a number of middle-class workers are against the idea of a minimum wage increase because their wages have been mostly stagnant and they feel it’s not fair that the lowest paid workers might approach their income, while billionaires and CEOs are buying up everything.
They’re right, it isn’t fair, but they’re looking in the wrong direction. Instead of trying to prevent the lowest paid worker from approaching their income, they should be trying to reign in the top 1%. But I guess it’s easier and feels better to say huge swaths of people don’t deserve to make anywhere near as much money as they do rather than enduring the inconvenience of finding alternatives to Amazon, Facebook, Insta, Xitter, etc.
Not to dismiss the real problem of monopolies and market dominance-- but the docility and lack of resistance of such people would be startling if it weren’t over shadowed by their misplaced contempt for the poor. edit: typo
It’s like that cartoon of the guy with a whole pile of cookies telling the guy with one cookie “Look out! That immigrant wants to steal your cookie!” You can substitute any other demographic for the immigrant - socialist, burger-flipper, victim of medical extortion - and it still works.
Sure, I want a cookie too. I look out the window of my ground floor (first floor for the US) apartment at my neighbour watching a beautiful sunset through the wide glass front or his fancy first floor living room (second floor for the US) that seems to be about the size of my whole apartment, and I want that too. I see another guy move his Mercedes from the driveway so he can drive his BMW today instead, and I want a nice car too. I hear a colleague cursing the bureaucratic bullshit of having to do the property taxes for both his own parents and his in-laws on top of his own, and I can’t help but feel a sting of envy at his luxury problems. I want property too. I want a nice cookie too.
But the critical word in all these examples here is too. My neighbour can have his apartment with the beautiful view, the other guy can have his cars (climate consciousness notwithstanding, we have bigger sinners to worry about), my colleague’s parents and in-laws can have their houses too, and it’s a wonderful thing that they have the support of someone helping them as they age and struggle with these things who also has experience from his own property. I don’t want to take these things away. Hell, even when I see my landlady’s constant vacation pictures that I know my rent is sponsoring, I don’t begrudge her that vacation (though I do resent having to pay rent). They can all keep their cookies.
But if a corporate CEO gets a multi-million annual salary and another multi-million bonus while I got a “generous” thousand for an internship, he can well spare a cookie or a thousand. And even he pales next to private investors earning - whether through dividends or through their stock value increasing - just as much without even carrying any degree of responsibility. At least the CEO still does some work, even if it doesn’t justify his salary.
To be clear, I still don’t give a shit about the small-time middle-class pension fund investor. They participate in a fucked up system and I wish their pension would be funded differently, but if their investment pays my wages, I’ll be content. Let them have their cookie. Hell, I’d even be content to let them have a second cookie, if that was the price for me and everyone else getting at least one.
I can cope with some level of inequality as a concession to the unfair and imperfect nature of humanity. It would still be better than having to pick up the crumbs off the table while watching as the big guy shovels another tray of cookies I baked onto his pile.
For anyone worried about their cookie: Let’s work together. Let’s topple the cookie-hoarders and distribute their cookies. Let’s get you another cookie. And if I have a cookie of my own, you don’t need to worry so much about me wanting to take yours. We all win.
Except the hoarders, but fuck them.
Why aren’t conservative parties illegal worldwide yet?
Because banning people you don’t agree with from running for Congress is fascist, even if it’s for what you believe is the right reasons. Everyone has a right to vote for who represents them, even if they’re garbage.
Nah, fuck that shit. This shit (https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/worlds-top-1-own-more-wealth-95-humanity-shadow-global-oligarchy-hangs-over-un) is enough justification to treat right-wingers and their financers as Pinochet treated socialists.
Authoritarianism is cool when you’re the one being an authoritarian.
Really sucks when someone you don’t agree with decides what is allowed or not.
If you give a government power to decide who is allowed in the government, even if you think it’s for the right reasons, you’ve now created a system where all it takes is one or a few people to turn a utopia into a grueling dictatorship.
That’s not really a good gamble
If we want to get out from the late capitalist dystopia, repression against reactionary forces is the only way.
And then what? Yes, identifying and resisting an oppressive power structure is all well and good, but any revolution has to grapple with the fact that you will still have a massive population with cultural and ideological structures that can only conceive of the world in terms of the old system. Congratulations, you’ve toppled the government and now you have the power to implement a new system. What will you do with that power? Will you implement yet another system in which there is a powerful in-group that the law protects but does not bind and a disempowered out-group that the law binds but does not protect?
you will still have a massive population with cultural and ideological structures that can only conceive of the world in terms of the old system
We force them in the new system
Will you implement yet another system in which there is a powerful in-group that the law protects but does not bind and a disempowered out-group that the law binds but does not protect?
No, the new system would be “right-wingers and rich lobbyists fuck off while normal people thrive and late stage capitalist dystopia is finally unwinded, and whoever opposes it gets rekt”
Okay, but you haven’t really answered the question of “what’s the new system”. You don’t have to solve all the problems of creating a new society, but you should have a general idea. “Not the old system and not the past people” is not an actual system. “Normal people thrive” is not an actual system.
For example, monarchy would be a system where “capitalist dystopia is finally unwinded and whoever opposes it gets rekt,” but somehow I don’t think that’s what you want.
You have to make an actual positive claim about what you envision, about your ideology, values, ethics, etc.
Sure, let’s kill or jail everyone we disagree with. Surely that won’t lead to anything bad, right? It’s not like this hasn’t happened before and lead to millions of deaths or anything.
A sacrifice to be had for a better world.
You know, maybe casually advocating for the torture and/or deaths of millions of people might be the sign that you need to go touch some grass.
Like, seriously… do you even register what you sound like?
The point is that GOP and similar POS right-wing parties all over the world, all in the pockets of oil companies and rich lobbyists, have ruined the world long enough. Time to give 'em a taste of their own medicine.
Big “perpetually online” oof energy right here.
Go out. Meet people. Maybe consider a “dumb” flip phone if the Internet is too much for you. I promise you: the world isn’t as bleak as the Internet has made you believe it is.
