Also
- Brotherly war is bad
- Russians are awesome
- “Russian world” is a dangerous mania
- Russophobia is real
- Ukraine will be free
- Russia was under brutal dictators before
- Russia is under brutal dictator again
Has Russia ever been under a system that isn’t a brutal dictatorship?
Do brutal dictatorship systems before they became brutal dictatorships count?
I would upvote without the last sentence. The Holocaust was a singular event as there have been many singular events, and none repeated itself, neither as tragedy nor as farce, but some of them rhyme
Holocaust is a general term, and there have been others, here are some pictures of huge piles of skulls from the Cuban Holocaust done by the Spanish in the late 1800s:
It is extremely dangerous and part of both the new Nazis and Zionist playbook to designate the Holocaust as a “singular event”, implying that there was no genocide of similar scope before, or there could be after it.
Looking for example how Britain systematically stared more than 10 million people to death in India, the Holocaust isn’t even the worst genocide in terms of absolute numbers.
In particular in Germany this “singularity” trope is heavily used as propaganda, of how Germany has learned from its history, when it didn’t. New authoritarian measures? Cannot be compared because how dare you compare it to the rise of fascism, that lead to the one and only Holocaust?! Deliberate ramping up of racist rethoric accompanied by more violent hate crime? It is not the Holocaust so why are you saying it feels like the late 20s again?!
And of course subsequently: How dare you say Gaza is a concentration camp?! How can you imply any similarity between Israel and the Nazis?! You evil antisemite! Oh you are a renowned Jewish scholar that studied the Holocaust? Your parents have barely survived the concentration camps? Well you are against Israel so you are “alledgedly Jewish” or how about “self hating Jew”?
This is the actual discourse in Germany. Jews not aligned with Zionism are heavily targeted by Politicians and state bureaucrats in a heavily antisemitic manner. And this “Holocaust is singular” argumentation is part of it.
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-strange-logic-of-germanys-antisemitism-bureaucrats
the Holocaust isn’t even the worst genocide
Yes, the Holocaust was one of many genocides. Still it is the only holocaust. You can compare it to other genocides without equalizing it (a differentiation that works much less in German).
In particular in Germany this “singularity” trope is heavily used as propaganda
True, but so is the opposite. I tried to frame my first comment not in that propagandistic way. That narrative goes like: Germany is the country of thinkers and poets, we had Luther, Goethe and Einstein, than something bad happened but all my relatives were in the resistance and after 1945 there aren’t any nazis anymore anywhere now. And it can’t repeat anyway so why bother.
That’s not how I framed it. I deliberately said it’s one of many singular events and it “rhymes” with others (including present day events)
If the holocaust wasn’t singular at all, it wasn’t that bad. Shit happens. The Nazis weren’t that bad either. Other states do similar things. We don’t have to learn from our past when it repeats anyway.
There are many lines to draw here but please have the intellectual integrity not to draw one at the usage of a single word. Take the second to look how it is used.
And there are differences between the holocaust and colonialist genocides (“the enemy within”), as there are commonalities. Each is singular and thereby they are all connected.
How dare you say Gaza is a concentration camp?!
Yes, it is, as where the gulags and the US had concentration camps for Japanese people during the Second War to End War (George Takei, the actor of Sulu in Star Trek, lived in one as a kid).
Is Israel an apartheid state? To a degree, as is the US with the illegalized immigrants and former prisoners aren’t allowed to vote (and who’s more likely to be imprisoned?) Even if the law applies to everyone the same way, to quote Anatole France: “In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread.” (I’ve got this quote from Worshiping Power by Peter Gelderloos)
I’m an anarchist. In my view, all states are bad. I’m not singling out Israel even though it is a good (as in evil) example. There is a lot to criticize and for much of it, you find similar things in other states also worth criticizing. While all states are and have been bad and did bad stuff, only one made the holocaust happen. Still, others did similar things. Denying this can be used for both sides.
And I still don’t know what the meme is referring to. To October 9th or the genocide in Gaza? Or to Sudan? Why is no one talking about Sudan? (Me included, I know something is going there but don’t ask me what)
If you’re a German, you make me sick to be another left-wing German.
Yes, it is, as where the gulags and the US had concentration camps for Japanese people during the Second War to End War (George Takei, the actor of Sulu in Star Trek, lived in one as a kid
Gaza is a lot closer to the Nazi KZs than the Japanese internment camps ever even got close to, the only difference is that the space in Gaza is bigger, and they managed to smuggle stuff in. Israel kept them on a strict water ration (having destroyed the entire native infrastructure decades ago) only “turning on the taps” a few days out of the week, keeping the population on hunger rations, in an open effort to starve the population out, a plan proudly proclaimed as being a moral good by a member of the Israeli government.
Is Israel an apartheid state? To a degree, as is the US
No, it isn’t, and you obviously don’t know jack shit by the rest of that paragraph. Israel is a full on apartheid state, Arab-Israelis are literally not even citizens, many laws specifically single out and directly target said minorities, they are not allowed to use the vast majority of large road networks, they are not allowed to own land in “Jewish areas”, they aren’t allowed into “Jewish areas” unless they have specific reason to be there. the police nationwide has instituted a de-facto curfew for all Arabs to be back in their ghettos, Israeli EMTs will literally strap patients onto the hood of their ambulances, etc…
people aren’t making the comparisons between the behavior of Germans during the Nazi rule, and modern day far-right theocratic ethno-fascist Israel. We see the same dehumanization, the same hate, the same disregard and disgust of the “other”, we see the same actions, the same propaganda (multiple members of the Israeli government have literally used the 14 words), the same Lebensraum, and You, and people like you are so fucking up your own ass about how big strong and bad Germany was (another point many current neo-Nazis will agree on, because if only Germany is capable of this type of evil, it is because they must somehow b a superior “race”), that you will actively repeat Nazi shit, as long as the framing is right. you are proof that the German education system has failed you in regard to learning about the horrors of the Nazi regime, because you are more focused on the picture of the mustache man than what they did.
things aren’t bad because the Nazis did them, the Nazis were bad because of what they did, and if Israel is committing the same atrocities, they are deservedly compared to nazis.
And I still don’t know what the meme is referring to. To October 9th or the genocide in Gaza? Or to Sudan? Why is no one talking about Sudan? (Me included, I know something is going there but don’t ask me what)
tho, you do get one thing correct, you have no fucking clue about anything that goes on in that region.
P.S. please don’t call yourself an anarchist, you’re just another “Anti-D”
Way to go shitting all over someone trying to give a nuanced take. You completely lost it here, and for what? For your right (or pleasure) to equate Israelis to Nazis? Well done.
nuanced take? please, there wasn’t a scrap of nuance in that entire post of theirs, it was literally the same holocaust denying shit you see on every conservative news outlet.
In what way do see him denying the holocaust? He does confirm it was a singular event
it wasn’t even considered a singular event until the 70s, where everyone started to forget the other victims, you had the Jewish holocaust, the Romani holocaust, the Slavic holocaust etc… but ironically since most of the world still saw is as fine to be racist to these people, we gladly forgot about these groups. Hence, we are left with the holocaust of the only people to have a larger representative community in the allied powers as being the victims of the holocaust in everyone’s collective minds.
And to be fair, it does sort of piss me off when people go around spreading the myth of the singular holocaust, something that is in its very essence holocaust denial, because you deny many of the differing victims of Nazi brutality and murder, to deny a modern day holocaust.
Then again, try explaining to people that the genocide the Germans perpetrated didn’t start with millions dead, or that it mostly took place outside the camps (misconceptions Nazis also still use to this day, if you ever heard the “cookies” or “pizza” analogy from the far right).
Not fond of meaningless arguments about definitions designed to derail a discussion.
definitions
Ah, right, because words don’t actually mean what they mean. They mean what I feel they should mean. Thank you for reminding me of this, clearly, universal truth. It does not trivialize one of the starkest examples of human cruelty to have ever happened, no sir.
Gtfo with your linguistic prescriptivism, asshole
Most descriptivist will spend hours arguing (not as in disagreeing but as in discussing) which word means what in which context and for which person. Can I use “to argue” in a neutral sense and what about the noun “argument”? Why exactly is this a different story? But not you, you got it right and everyone else got it wrong.
I don’t even know what the meme is trying to say with the holocaust comparison. Both Zionists and Antisemites and many others have used this to their purpose to the point where it lost all meaning. When “the Jews learned evil in Germany” and Israel is “hell on earth” and a nazi state committing holocaust on the Palestinians, and killing one Jew is holocaust and so is abortion, the animal industry and everything in between and beyond, than either the holocaust happened only once – or it has no meaning at all and happens everywhere at once. You decide.
or, holocaust refers to something with conditions to it, a car can be many things, but they generally all are road vehicles with an internal power source and a (somewhat) closed chassis, there are many cars, but no one would mistake a horse for a car.
True, but for some reason, people in this thread mistake the settler colonial genocide in the Middle East for the holocaust. I’m glad you’re with me! I’m not the only voice of reason anymore.
Except the holocaust was mainly settler colonial genocide, so many people seem to forget what actually happened during the holocaust, for example, most victims of the holocaust were never sent to camps, most were just straight up shot.
Now this is what I call mental illness
Hot takes - Judaism is just as bad as every other Abrahamic faith.
I’ve never had a Jew bother me about accepting their religion at a bus stop despite my best efforts to first politely dissuade them, then rudely dismissed their bullshit until I snapped and got outright hostile and offensive.
Judaism is better in one significant way: they find proselytizing offensive.
Another hot take: Atheism is a religion and is no better than the others LOL
Atheism is a religion like spectating is a sport. It isn’t.
Atheism is a religion like spectating is a sport. It isn’t.
That’s just your belief.
Belief isn’t religion. I also believe you’re being intentionally obtuse about this. That’s also just a belief and not a religion. Rhetorical question: do you believe the world is round? Would you call that a religion?
Rhetorical question: do you believe the world is round? Would you call that a religion?
Yeah, we have photos of the world. This is a physical thing. The existence of God is a metaphysical kind of thing, so any stance on this (whether belief in existence OR non-existence) is a religious belief.
Like most religious people, atheists believe that being a part of their religious group makes them special. But atheists tend to take it to a further degree than most religions to the point they believe they are above other religions and refuse to call themselves a religion. But atheism is a religion, it’s just part of your belief system that it isn’t. If it weren’t you would be more like “I guess we should agree to disagree” rather than acting like I’ve committed blasphemy by saying atheism is a religion.
The existence of God is a metaphysical kind of thing, so any stance on this (whether belief in existence OR non-existence) is a religious belief.
See, that’s where I disagree. I’m an atheist and I don’t believe or claim to know that there is no god. I don’t believe that there isn’t a god at all. All I believe is that there’s no sufficient proof at this time that there positively is a god. Much less a god that demands certain behaviours/rituals, diets and dress codes and whatnot. You can’t prove a negative after all.
acting like I’ve committed blasphemy by saying atheism is a religion.
I never did this, though. We’re just talking as far as I’m aware, I’m not offended by your stance in the slightest, I just took your first comment as an invitation to discuss this matter.
I very much agree with you that many atheists take their belief too far. Any atheist that claims to know there is 100% certainly no god is taking their belief to dogmatic and religious belief levels. Since you can’t prove a negative we’ll never have proof that there’s no god in the same way we’ll never have proof that there’s no flying spaghetti monster. I don’t think the existence of a god or a flying spaghetti monster has been demonstrated sufficiently for me to adopt that belief. To me it seems an unnecessary (indeed metaphysical) invention to explain physical phenomena that have already been explained with physical evidence. And that leads me to being an atheist. For all intents and purposes there is no god until there is proof that there is. Excuse me for yet another metaphor, but I hope to explain my way of thinking better through an example: I also believe there’s no dogshit under my shoe until I can smell, see or otherwise detect it. Unless that’s the case I’m going to act as if my shoes are clean but that’s different than me saying there’s no shit under my shoe and there never will be. The former is a working hypothesis that can change depending on circumstances and the latter is holding on to a belief no matter what (religiously, one might say).
You identify as an atheist. Atheism is a group with common beliefs. There are common expressions like “You can’t prove a negative” that atheists recite similar to how religious people will cite scripture.
Many atheists will purchase books from people like Richard Dawkins. Are those books just empty pages? Nope, it’s full of guidance from someone who fulfills a similar role to that of a priest in a religion.
Things like “flying spaghetti monster” is joke atheists share that’s based around denigrating other religions. People who are zealous in their religion are often intolerant towards people with other beliefs.
Really atheism has all the properties of a religion. The only difference is that atheists claim that atheism is not a religion. Which is a belief, not objective fact. And there are other religions that claim not to be a religion but more of a “way of life”.
The bottom line is that you’ve found some significance to there not being scientific proof of something metaphysical which by definition can’t be proven. So significant that you take on atheist as an identity.
But it’s all just your belief. Scientifically speaking, we know there are some things that can never be proven, see the Halting Problem. The beliefs of atheists are consistent with scientific thought from a century ago, beliefs that have been disproven. But like most religions old ideas are clung to despite any evidence to the contrary because your beliefs are connected to your identity. A Christian can’t question the resurrection of Christ because if they did they wouldn’t be a Christian. Similarly an Atheist can’t question the capability of science to prove everything because then they wouldn’t be an atheist.
Religion is like that, it gets you stuck in a thought pattern you can’t question.
Let’s add: “Jihadism is dangerous”
“Hamas is a terrorist organisation”
“Innocent should not die no matter if they were born in Tel Aviv or in Gaza”
“7 of October of 2023 was a terrorist attack”
“Situation in a conflict zone where both sides has been killing each other for decades is not simple and has no simple solution”
“Blindly supporting muyahidins, I mean, intifada, has not a good historic record”
“A Hamas led Palestine would be very similar to any other Islamic dictatorship, which is not good for Palestinians, specially women and LGBT”
Under any circumstances innocents should die, and anyone (ANYONE) killing civilians is a piece of shit. But the fact that Israel government is a Piece of Shit does not mean that Hamas is not also a Piece of Shit. Some people seems to forget that when it comes to codemn the cruelties inflicted in that region.
“Situation in a conflict zone where both sides has been killing each other for decades is not simple and has no simple solution”
It is not a “conflict zone” and it is not “complicated”. It is classical settler colonialism with the inevitable goal of ethnically cleansing and genociding the native population. By this logic the Nazi “Lebensraum” ideology of invading Poland, systematically murdering not only Jews and other minorities, but death-Squadding entire villages to then settler their own people on the land would somehow be “complicated”.
I suppose we live in different realities where 7 of October never happened or where missiles are not raining every day over Israel trying to indiscriminately killing people
If we live in different realities there’s nothing to argue.
In my reality there has not been found any extermination camps. And the lots of civilians killed are killed like civilians are killed in most wars. Shitty but not comparable to ww2 Germany.
There’s a conflict, there is a war between two tyrant and radical organizations. Israel Army (Supported by USA) and Palestine Army(Supported by Islamic countries and terrorist organizations), and both are being pretty shitty and trying to exterminate the other one.
You won’t be happy with your opinion here. Lemmy is a pretty pro-terrorist place and gleefully ignore what Hamas, Mullah, Taliban (just look at Afghanistan) and all the other did, do and stand for. But thanks for your effort.
I’m just even surprised by the term “Free” Palestine.
Who would be Free in that supposed country?
Women would be free? No, they will be subjected to their husbands will.
Children would be free? No, they would be indoctrinated in Islam their whole life.
LBGT people would be free? No, they will be executed.
Non muslisms would be free? No, thay will be second class citizens.
Regular men would be free? No, they will have to follow the Coran or else.
What it is proposed by Hamas is not a Free Palestine, not by any definition of Free that I know.
Free from occupation…
Not the occupation of an Islamic Caliphate.
Changing one tyrant for another does not make you free.
Also if Israel citizens are “occupying” that place. What do you suggest to do with them are they not welcome there?, illustrate me on the solution, but please do not use the words “final solution”.
Because sorry to break your bubble, Hamas does not propose peacefully coexistence of jews and Muslims on the same land.
Israel is occupying Palestinian land… we want to be free of occuaption. Not sure why you bring Islam into this since Palestinian society is quite diverse and encompasses many different perspectives and religions. I myself am a Palestinian atheist.
My suggestion is: one democratic state of Palestine for Jews, Muslims, Christians, whenever the fuck lives there. Democratic voting, a President.
“final solution” is a now used by Israeli officials to describe Gaza so rofl this is not even a serious convo now. You are just gaslighting and talking to a person in your head.
I would be down with making the whole land a unique democratic state, free to anyone to vote or belief whatever they want like any democratic nation.
But I’m sorry to say that no side of the conflict seeks that. Not Hamas, not the Israeli government. Both just seek total extermination of the other side.
Most of current Palestine is not only Muslim, but also pretty radical about their beliefs, that’s just the way the cookie crumbles, there’s no sugar coating it.
I seek it. I’m one side in this too. There are many Palestinians and many Israelis who just want to have normal lives and full human rights for themselves and others.
I think you then might want to learn more about current Palestine, which is much more diverse than you describe.
the holocaust isn’t happening again though?
Doesn’t holocaust literally mean “death by all means necessary” I don’t think i would consider this “death by all means necessary”
although i think etymologically holocaust just has to do with “burning by fire” but i recall the germans using a more extreme definition of the holocaust more broadly.
also how is zionism is a death cult? Cringe sure, but death cult? Yeah idk about that one chief.
Saying Jews are awesome is not a valid statement, because just like every group some of them are awesome, some are neutral, and some are awful. It should say something like “Jews are regular people”
Replace it with two lines:
JEWS ARE PEOPLE
PALESTINIANS ARE ALSO PEOPLE^Nailed it.
Lets remove the Holocaust is happening again too.
Right wings idiots have been using that shit for too long to water it down.
Genocide does not equal holocaust.
Genocide has happened and been happening somewhere new almost every 5 years and continuously all over the world so let’s not pretend it’s something new with Israel and Palestine either lol.
