The flip side of this is that hackers can brick the same machines…
Depends how its set up. So long as it’s fully independent and disconnected from existing digital infrastructure it should be safer. It could be as simple as explosives hard-wired with a buried line running up into some bunker up in the mountains.
By remotely I don’t think they meant a long RJ45 cable connected to nothing.
So this doesn’t look like a setup that can be fully secure.
Could even be completely fake and just to dissuade China from invading.
That would be clever.
Stuxnet would like to have a word
Note, I said safer, not completely safe. Even a hard line to a bunker simply needs someone to locate the line and activate it.
Completely safe does not and likely never will exist, as the history of human arms evolution should demonstrate.
Assuming it wasn’t shielded and knew you where near by couldn’t you just broadcast the code or what ever with enough power to cause the same effect?
That’s what you have to do of you don’t want the invaders to get the tech. If you brick the processors they still have the machines. I’m not sure what the secret sauce is in this case, but china has a reputation of reverse engineering things in spite of foreign laws. The best way to keep it from happening is to make sure they get no part of it.
disconnected from existing digital infrastructure
Oh come on… this isn’t just a scrap metal press.
Sure. But a kill switch might warrant some additional investment. It’s not like your other features.
Assuming the kill switch is a real kill switch, and not just casually shutting things down in a way where they can easily be turned back on.
state actors have hacked airgapped equipment before, an actual backdoor will be ripe for exploitation.
:o how?
remember the stuxnet botnet, and how nobody knew what it was for?
turns out it was programmed to activate in the very specific conditions inside the iranian nuclear reactor facilities and sabotage it. the facility was airgapped but stuxnet was so ubiquitous in the country by then, someone just needed to bring the first usb stick in for it to be a pwn. or so goes the story.
iirc the us and israel admitted to doing it years later, it was somewhere in the obama era and they wanted to sabotage iran’s nuclear program. the systems remained infected for years reporting bogus data and slightly messing with the parameters so it never worked well and their scientists remained stumped until the virus was discovered.
Yeah… and now the Iranians have Stuxnet, too.
i’d be surprised if stuff like it werent way more common today.
So? Those backdoors have been closed since 2010 (probably earlier). Also not too many people have an Iranian Nuclear program.
The experts don’t share your optimism.
In the same report, Sean McGurk, a former cybersecurity official at the Department of Homeland Security noted that the Stuxnet source code could now be downloaded online and modified to be directed at new target systems. Speaking of the Stuxnet creators, he said, “They opened the box. They demonstrated the capability… It’s not something that can be put back.”
Dealing with Stuxnet has probably advanced Iranian cyberwarfare capablilites by several orders of magnitude that they wouldn’t have otherwise. That’s the problem with using this stuff as weaponry - they don’t explode.
Geopolitics aside, the technical architecture implementation of this mechanism is really interesting for me. I think over all, having extra ability to disable these systems would prevent US launching attacks against the plants — which could cause spill over local civilian injuries — but there’s just so many more things to consider.
Is it a dead-man switch style of setup, where if it doesn’t get authorization from HQ after some time, it will stop working? Or is it a kill switch style of setup, where they can remotely issue a command to stop operation? Because different vectors then come up depending on the securing method. For example: Dead-man switch might be tricked/overcame by turning back the clock, whereas kill switch might be circumvented by severing the network connection before the command could be issued (literally cut the underwater cables before they start the invasion).
How is the mechanism itself secured? If it is certificate based like everything else, then we’d have to worry about the certificate signing authority getting pressured into signing certificates by state backed actors.
Would really love to learn about the setup one day after all these is over, to learn about the thinkings that’s been done on such an important piece of … “infrastructure”?
They’d have everything to lose. Everyone wants those machines. Disabling or destroying those machines is like slashing the only nice life raft on the open ocean. Sure, there are others, but they have cracked rubber and don’t seem as firm. Bleeding edge fabs are the oil of the 21st century.
Media: So… you know those high-tech chipmaking machines? The ones banned for sale to China. The ones needed to make the processors for phones, cars, TVs, and AI servers. What happens if China invades Taiwan? Doesn’t Taiwan have a lot of those machines?
Manufacturer: not a problem.
Media: Phew. Glad that’s settled… Say, how come?
Manufacturer: (slaps the roof of the $250M machine). We can lock this baby remotely. In fact, here’s the remote (pulls out a keyfob).
Media: OK, cool, cool.
Techies of the world: WHAT THE ACTUAL FU… !!!
Techies: what if it bricks accidentally?
Manufacturer: *spinning the key fob* we didn’t think that far, to be honest
A few moments later
Manufacturer: *proceeds to drop the remote and accidentally bricks everything*
This is entirels expected to any computer avid person tho no? Its like all computerized things today. Military equipment, trains, tractors, cars, web services, phones etc. Everything is backdoored and remotely controllable.
Why I stay away from modern tech
This is a good thing, but it’s hardly unique. Any advanced manufacturing facility will have remote access to their equipment in case an operator needs reconfigure it, transfer data, or in this case if they’re invaded by Lesser Taiwan.
I’m assuming “disable” in this case is slightly more than just turning it off. I wouldn’t be surprised if the building isn’t left standing after it’s “disabled” here.
I hope its a little better than remote access to disable. Internet access can be knocked out and cell signals jammed. Hopefully they’ve gorba deadman switch and disable things immediately in the event of an invasion.
This sounds more like a deadman switch.
China should just replicate Taiwan somewhere like they replicate Paris, Venice, etc. and call it a day.
West Taiwan friend. Lesser sounds odd when it’s more populated and geographically larger. Though inferior sounds fitting
“Disable” like we disabled Iranian uranium enrichment centrifuges?
Even if it’s disabled, like do you really think they’d just install their own OS? Or find away around the part that’s disabled? Like you can still jail break an iPhone
i would assume it’s intended to be irreversible, like contamination to the point of permanent dysfunction. Though im not sure how that would be possible, i assume it is.
AFAIK the optics have to be regularly cleaned, calibrated and replaced. And by regularly, I mean daily/weekly for some of that.
The process is a carefully guarded trade secret and intentionally difficult. The companies that own the machines are not allowed to have employees who are trained in the process. When you buy those machines it comes with a service contract from the manufacturer. And the manufacturer is ASML - a Dutch company.
Again, if THATS the case, then you just find your own parameters and experiment with your pwn till its right. You don’t give up on the last car on earth if you’re a mechanic and they took the battery out. You find another that’s compatible or research how you could make your own.
Saying that a “company” with “trade secrets” is just a dumb patent road block to scare off consumers
China afaik is currently doing exactly that, as well as a few companies in the United States. Its not something just as easy as “experimenting yourself” (although, that is a very simplified way to look at it.) This is decades of research, with billions of dollars. Countries like China can socialize some of these aspects, and seems to be doing very well. It still takes time and money, and research. All the while, the current leading companies are still also furthering their own research.
The question is if their remote disable will be triggered before the US blows the factory up anyway.
Just add some brown people and throw a wedding. The factory will be leveled within hours.
You know what doesn’t convince people to rethink how they view America, or empire?
Arbitrarily inserting comments like that into topics where they’re disconnected and off topic.
Wait a minute…are you a DoD contractor whose mission it is to make any critic of America look whiney and detached from reality?
He’s not wrong is he though? And besides, what is Taiwan besides an American client state?
It’s wrong precisely because Taiwan is a client state…
okay. so let him joke about american empire.
I mean, I’d say that too even if untrue, if I were in their position.
i assume by disable they probably mean, something along the lines of irreversibly contaminating the whole of the assembly line.
I’d be curious to know how specifically they’re going about this.
They could probably overload the circuitry to make it unusable. Or use like, IDK, mini explosives?
true, you could just blast the ever living shit out the circuitry, rendering it completely non functional. That’s another good one for sensors and shit as well.
I would like to think we’re further away from losing most modern technology than the world’s only chip factory getting struck by lightning but the world is a fickle place I guess
Ok winnie the pooh, like they are going to tell you
Why the hell would they advertise this is beyond me…
My understanding is that some of the benefits China would get from invading Taiwan is the control of Taiwan’s world-leading semiconductor industry. So making it public knowledge that any invading force (i.e. China) would not be able to take over their production capabilities is a small deterrent.
It’s a small deterrent for China but a bigger incentive for other countries to defend Taiwan.
That’s what some analysts say but I really don’t think China cares. They want the land (*it’s strategically important for naval operations) and a unified China.
This is true, China doesn’t care. I’m actually confused about the narrative around China wanting to take TSMC. Even the most cursory glace at the situation should make it obvious this isn’t one of China’s goals. This is because these EUV machines don’t work on magic. They work on knowledge and spare parts. Even in the unlikely scenario that China somehow invades and these machines aren’t destroyed by either China or the retreating Taiwanese, they aren’t going to be able to operate them and more importantly get spare parts to keep them running. They’d at best be used to disassemble and review.
All of this ignores the fact that China is already at 5nm using their own equipment anyway. For the extra 2nm of difference between TSMC’s 3nm to SMIC’s 5nm isn’t large enough to rationalize anything close to what they’re talking about. It’d be cheaper to just keep subsidizing the Chinese industry rather than invading.
All of this is to say, that China may or may not invade, but TSMC isn’t on the list of reasons. If anything, it’s on the opposite end. China has a LOT of motivation to bomb TSMC to prevent the west from getting chips as if TSMC is gone, then suddenly Chinese 5nm are pretty much the most advanced chips in the world (besides Samsung). Thus, the real conclusion is we need to invest in Samsung, which surprisingly isn’t happening for whatever reason is beyond me.
Keep in mind that the “nm” in the different company’s lithography process names are basically just marketing at this point, and don’t reflect anything meaningful about the actual size of transistors. As far as I know, we don’t really know much about China’s latest “5nm” process and how it actually compares to others.
And even if they did get the machines in working order, yay it’ll be relevant for 5 to maybe 10 years before tech goes up.
Chinese GPUs need to be tested thoroughly across AAA titles, Linux. Imagine playing Genshin or Wuthering Waves with those GPUs.
They want power and influence, I don’t think they care too much (or at all) about their citizens be it divided or united. Unless those citizens add to power or influence, of course
Yup, US gov is fucked up. Oh, wait…
Well, I don’t think any government is different in that regard 😅
Yeah that’s why they want the land, it’s important strategically for naval operations.
Is it not obvious? To discourage Chinese invasion.
China wants Taiwan’s technology and manufacturing. If they destroy it, China will gain nothing.
Message to China: don’t, because you would not find nothing here anyway.
Message to everybody else: y’all better help China with their decision, or else!!
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