- In short: Transgender woman Roxanne Tickle is suing social media platform Giggle for Girls after she was excluded from the women-only app.
- She is alleging unlawful discrimination on the basis of gender identity while the app’s founder has denied she is a woman.
- What’s next? The hearing is expected to run for four days.
A transgender woman who was excluded from a women-only social media app should be awarded damages because the app’s founder has persistently denied she is a woman, a Sydney court has heard.
In February 2021, Roxanne Tickle downloaded the Giggle for Girls social networking app, which was marketed as a platform exclusively for women to share experiences and speak freely.
Users needed to provide a selfie, which was assessed by artificial intelligence software to determine if they were a woman or man.
Ms Tickle’s photograph was determined to be a woman and she used the app’s full features until September that year, when the account became restricted because the AI decision was manually overridden.
I have nothing to add, just amused by the fact that a Tickle can’t get a giggle.
Well, Tickle has a pickle, and giggle’s really fickle.
“Fickle Giggle won’t allow Pickled Tickle.” These headlines write themselves!
She had GRS, it’s just transphobia in pun form
“Hey fuck you for correctly pointing out transphobia, downvote”
What the fuck lemmy, we’re really making “pickle” jokes about a trans woman? Are we fucking chrischan? Grow up.
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Hahah beat me to it, that scene played in my head as soon as I read the name.
congratulations sir, you won this thread! :)
This thread was fated to be a dumpster fire from the instant it was created
I’ll explain my down-vote as per your edit: people don’t like thread meta discussions. It’s unproductive, mean and frankly just lazy. Keep that on reddit.
I don’t understand.
It’s okay to discriminate against men but not transgender women?
While I certainly agree with you that discrimination based on sex is unacceptable im most contexts, I believe that gender exclusive spaces, unless they hinder people directly, sometimes are a good thing.
My dad is a mental health professional and founded a weekly ‘only-men’ self help group. He found that some things they talked about there wouldn’t have worked with women involved. That group existed for about 5 years or so and helped quite a few struggling men.
So yeah, unless there’s any maliciousness involved, I’d argue that gender exclusiity is not bad in every context.
I remember back in high school I had a teacher in an all male classroom because it was a stem field but for kids like an introductory course. A girl showed up in the 2nd year and he sort of joked about how it changes the dynamic cuz now all the guys will need to flex for her so the point of the class was sort of ruined. I remember that class was actually fucking amazing because you would make friends with guys regardless of your social circle or wealth background. Like I talked to multiple demographics and we all treated each other equally and we were all there to learn the trade. It was an amazing experience that I’ve never found anywhere else, especially not any circle where there were women. Hell even guys who were in that class there were a few if you met them outside the class it was just different. I made some close friends there where we kept spending time together outside the class that I otherwise would not have met but others when they got back to “the rest of the world” that hierarchy set back in and they couldn’t bring themselves to talk to you on that level anymore. Women invading male safe spaces under the guise of glass ceilings or whatever was extremely toxic for men, it’s as if men started barging into women’s bathrooms honestly saying it’s a glass ceiling to their right to stare at women in their own private moments. Stupid example but it’s all I could come up with.
The point is I would love to find another environment like that and even I wish I looked for more like that as a kid and to have appreciated it for what it was more at the time. Men need to learn to see each other as brothers and not as opposition, that’s the only way we get out of this mess is to unionize properly. I think we had it once but we lost it because of this fucking propaganda painting men as inherently predators.
Women invading male safe spaces under the guise of glass ceilings or whatever was extremely toxic for men, it’s as if men started barging into women’s bathrooms
So the class wasn’t a “men only” class, it just was a class women generally weren’t interested in. And a woman deciding she is interested was the same as men barging into women’s bathrooms.
Jfc, who are the snowflakes again?
The men. I’m a woman.
Discriminating against men is based on gender, discriminating against trans women is based on sex (at birth).
Your account is a day old so I’m thinking you’re arguing in bad faith and are likely transphobic.
Why not just create a “trans” app and make your own people happy too?
Trans women are women.
I down voted, not because I disagree with the claim, but because it doesn’t make any sense in the context and just reads as a knee-jerk dismissive response of a valid point.
It’s true though. Gender is a performance, and as a woman your womanhood is always under scrutiny from everyone else. You can get your identity as woman taken from you if you don’t “look woman enough”. Which if you say have more masculine features, cut your hair short as a cis woman you become less woman. For example Butch lesbians are actually the most often de-womanized. Same goes for less masculine men. It’s a box no one fits into perfectly and having certain genitals doesn’t include or exclude you from either.
This person wanted a safe space where they wouldn’t have to deal with cis straight men. Which makes it that if men want inclusion in such spaces they need to be better.
Another question for you all, why as cis men do you want inclusion in these spaces?
So, what about those who are born with a uterus? Where can they go? What if they decide, only those who were born with a vagina at birth, are women and we want only those to be part of our organization? I mean, are they wrong?
“trans women are women” is pointing out this isn’t about men vs women but the given sex at birth.
We all accept that trans women are not cis women. The obvious point by the poster was why is it okay to discriminate against men but not trans women?
Real /r/unpopularopinion moment.
I think the thing that the TERFs ultimately miss is that this person was initially welcomed in as a woman and treated as a woman by her peers. She did not disrupt the community or harass any of the participants, until she voiced support for Trans Rights.
It was at this point that a handful of moderators decided to interrogate her on her original gender and use that as an excuse to boot an active and in-good-standing member.
So she wasn’t removed for “not being a woman”. She was removed for “disagreeing with the political views of the admin”.
Anyone familiar with Reddit politics should be able to sympathize.
I don’t understand? Reddit politics is ultra liberal, they would eat this women’s app alive for discriminating against the trans.
Yes you’re right the transphobes are taking over here
Lol…what? I’ve read like 3 comments saying that the app is in the right, the overwhelmingly majority are siding with the trans…
I define a woman as a female who has a uterus, how should I define them?
So if a woman has a hysterectomy, she is no longer a woman? What is she?
That’s silly and you know it. She still had one to begin with. That’s like saying “if a dude cuts off his penis, he’s no longer a dude!”
I define a woman as a female who has a uterus
Your definition. Has a uterus. You said nothing about a female who had a uterus.
And you haven’t defined female.
Oh brother…
It’s not my fault that your definition excluded women who had a uterus at one time but didn’t later.
How about women who have two X chromosomes but were born without a uterus? Not women?
Biological gender: A Person with two X-Chromosons
Social Gender: Anyone who wants to be a woman
What about someone who has Swyer Syndrome? What is their “biological gender?”
Male
So you are male even if you have a complete set of female sex organs and no male sex organs?
Literally the only way to determine ‘male’ or ‘female’ is a DNA test?
We’ve never been able to determine that before Flemming discovered chromosomes in the late 19th century?
That’s really weird, because the etymology of the word male traces it back to the 14th century.
Now I’m not math expert, but I’m pretty sure 14 comes before 18.
So you are male even if you have a complete set of female sex organs and no male sex organs?
Biologically yes. At least according to my definition, but thats a different discussion.
Literally the only way to determine ‘male’ or ‘female’ is a DNA test?
Biologically, yes.
We’ve never been able to determine that before Flemming discovered chromosomes in the late 19th century?
In the 19th century we assumed, that social and biological gender are the same and ignored, that basically every definition of „male“ or „female“ at the time had exceptions and wasn‘t applicable to everyone.
That’s really weird, because the etymology of the word male traces it back to the 14th century.
I am surprised it doesn‘t traces back even further. People believed in all kind of shit back then. Thats no argument.
Now I’m not math expert, but I’m pretty sure 14 comes before 18.
That doesn‘t make sense in the slightest. By that logic the earth is flat, because the first models of a flat earth were published before the first models of a round earth.
I’m not familiar with Australian law, but how do you get to “discrimination on the basis of gender identity” in this case. Wouldn’t the case for that be a trans man trying to join or stay on the app? (Or a cis man for that matter).
It sounds like Tickle’s position is that the app should be discriminating based on gender identity. Her complaint seems more like them discriminating on (vaguely defined policy ammounting to) assigned gender at birth.
Having said that, I suspect their tune will change if a trans man tried joining.
Having said that, I suspect their tune will change if a trans man tried joining.
Exactly this. I fucking guarantee they wouldn’t let a trans man join and actively contribute.
I think she will win this. They didn’t require a genital photo so what’s even their proof? Arbitrary requirement anyways. Rules like that only leave people out. I understand the want for a space like that though. I hope this woman finds a space where she can feel safe.
Removed by mod
Wow an app based on gender descrimination is being sued for gender descrimination. I’m shocked
You know what this means though? It means that no one ever needed to push back against it at all just not engage in it themselves. Cuz they just eat each other in a vacuum. Without some enemy to band together against like the boogeyman of boogeymen whitey, their inner chaos is all they’re left with with no enemy to project it on, so they eat each other and everything just crashes and falls apart. No one needed to do anything, not even complain, just look at it in amusement and take another sip of their coffee and go about their day thanking god that’s not you.
Did you forget you’re not in your sleazy little far-right bubble?
I’m not a right winger. I just see an ouroboros when I see it, it’s the snake eating itself.
Blantant lie.
Epic name
Welcome to 2024, women can’t have their own things anymore… (and I’m talking about REAL women, you know, the individuals have two X chromosomes).
people actually don’t have a job
It sounds like you’re trying to argue nobody should fight discrimination while there are still ditches to dig and toilets to scrub.
What’s the point of a woman’s only app (or any women’s only space) if they let anyone in simply based on them saying ‘I’m a woman’?
Dude, there’s like four sentences and they’re all on this page and it says it takes an AI assessed picture of your face to determine if you’re a woman. Why are people so fucking lazy and snarky?
The question you have to ask here is “if anyone can just sign up then how was she noticed, and if they spend any time verifying then how did they not realize she was very serious about her womanhood?”. She’s had gender-affirming surgery and you’re really out here saying “if they let anyone in simply based on them saying ‘I’m a woman’?”.
They’re clearly doing some work here and not doing it very well. And you’re missing very important facts.
Because she is a woman. It’s really that simple.
trans woman*
Trans woman = woman, I fail to see your point.
Help me understand. You are saying there is absolutely no difference between a woman and a trans woman?
They are saying that all women — cis and trans — are women. It doesn’t mean or imply that trans women and cis women have no differences.
I must be confused about what an equal sign means then.
Trans women = women
Cis women = women
Cis women ≠ trans women
Maybe because everything about the space still caters to women’s concerns, and the presumption for a random-ass social media app should be that your appearance doesn’t determine your intent? If somebody’s daily life is being a woman, then why the fuck should it matter which parts they have? Are you also going to exclude gay women, or women who cut their hair short, or women who choose not to have kids? After all, they’re not having all the same issues that long-haired cis-het mothers have.
Not to mention it’s a technologically stupid gate to keep. In what fucking world does it deter anyone who is willing to be dishonest?
Sexism.
A waste of everyone’s time. Sounds like entitlement.
This is funny when you just look at your profile’s first page and see you’ve made comments like these:
I hate this rhetoric. It implies that this a refular occurence. It is just a man hating comment. If this is happening to you frequently, maybe you are the problem. I am tired of being assumed an asshole just because I am a man. It is sexist. Plain and simple.
So you deny “unproblematic” women regularly experiencing unsafe behavior from men who are entitled and you’re also denying people’s gender identity - otherwise, why would it be a waste of time for a woman’s fight for her right to access women’s spaces? So you’re hateful towards people you perceive to be “men” while complaining about “man haters” elsewhere. Logical inconsistencies in favor of hate is a hallmark sign of right wing extremist views.
That is some fancy mental gymnastics you came up with there. My comment before has absolutely nothing to do with this article. The fact that you went through my comment history to find a marginal strawman just goes to show you are trying to be argumentative. You can disagree with me all you want, it doesn’t mean you’re correct. In fact, nobody’s opinion can be correct.
It’s entitled to exclude.
It absolutely is.
If it’s okay to exclude men, then it it should be okay to exclude trans women.
Or, we can recognize all the reasons that women (cis and trans) want and need women’s-only spaces. This site was claiming to be a space for women — not just cis women. According to the article, the site restricted Tickle’s account after some person there reviewed Tickle’s photo and determined that — because she didn’t look feminine enough — that she was not a woman. That, as well as using AI to determine gender or sex, are both deeply sexist and unacceptable.
Not letting someone be part of a women’s space because they don’t meet someone’s standards of what a woman should look like? That’s bad. That’s wrong. That’s illegally discriminatory. That ends up hurting both cis and trans women, just like bathroom bills do.
That’s illegally discriminatory.
Under what law? I’m not familiar with Australia, but here the the US, transfolk are just piggybacking off of legal protections against gender discrimination; which were never actually intended to protect trans people.
In most cases, that actually works out fine. If you discriminate against a transwomen, it’s because you think they are a man presenting as a women. However, you have no problem with a women presenting as a women, so you are running afoul of gender discrimination laws. Legally speaking, your problem was discriminating against her for being a man.
In instances like this though, that argument doesn’t apply. Once you get to the “you are discriminating against her for being a man” stage of the analysis, the response is simply “yes, and I’m allowed to discriminate against men”.
It seems like Australia would need to have a law that specifically protects trans people for her to prevail here.
